looking for a guide for Ease Gill trip!

[PeteHall]

FFS take a copy of the survey.

With you on this @mrodoc.

Or just plan an in/out trip, so you always know the way out.

Either would be much better for learning the system than just following a guide (paid or otherwise) and certainly more rewarding.

 

[mrodoc]

Well this sounds like total bollocks? Got any evidence for it?

People who don't know there is such a thing as tide so get trapped. People who break their legs on slippery surfaces and then want to sue as they haven't been warned. Do I need to continue?

 

[JoshW]

People who don't know there is such a thing as tide so get trapped. People who break their legs on slippery surfaces and then want to sue as they haven't been warned. Do I need to continue?

My post said evidence not stories.

Plus causation and correlation coming into effect here. You asserted that an increase in risk aversion is causing more accidents. I feel like evidence is required for a statement like that.

Any chance we can get an X-esque community fact checking system put in place..

 

[ChrisB]

You asserted that an increase in risk aversion is causing more accidents.

I think the intended point (not fully explained) was that an increase in risk aversion by the authorities was leading people to expect a warning if there was any danger at all, and that expectation was causing more accidents.

 

[Space Doubt Caver]

I made it quite clear I have been in Ease Gill before, but it was 14 years ago, who here can remember that one individual route they did one time from 14 years ago... nobody.

Asking for someone who knows the route, asking for help does not equate to "we don't know the risks or dangers, or lack of competence, or commercial" it's merely just saying, i'd like to avoid a callout because of getting lost, which CRO have had a few callouts recently because of this exact thing, (People getting lost in Ease Gill) and no doubt, if someone who know the route was there it could have been avoided.

When callouts happen it puts others at risk, the aim to minimise the chance of that "callout" happening.

I am a very competent caver and so is all on the trip I would rather swallow my pride and ego, and ask for a local that knows the route in such a big system. because of the 6 P's (Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance)

By doing this it ensures that we can also have an explore without getting lost.
It also helps ensure that the chances of callout is minimised.

Asking a local to join, is not as uncommon as some would like to think, beer tokens, as far as i'm aware has always been the standard for this practice.

Yes in hindsight I should have written the post in a more explanatory way, which I have noticed has caused a degree of misunderstanding but please don't argue.

Besides this is now resolved, and we will have a great trip.
Thank you for your interest

 

[cavetroll]

I don’t think you have anything to apologise for.

It would be nice to be moving away from a society of big egos and toxic masculinity where asking for help is immediately jumped upon as being a problem…

So what if some people want a guide, paid or voluntary? Let people be.

 

[PeteHall]

who here can remember that one individual route they did one time from 14 years ago... nobody.

Off topic, but I'm pretty confident I remember every caving trip I've done over the last (nearly) 20 years.

For some reason I just remember places. Crap with names and faces though!

 

[Cantclimbtom]

Also...while there's nothing wrong in asking for help, asking this isn't necessarily asking for help in the needing help sense. I've been given "guided tours" on 3 occasions and I'm very grateful to them.

The first trip fell securely into the "this person needs help" category but the other 2 trips I could've done them ... all be it nowhere near as well! (Actually the last one would have been bailed out of at the start due to lighting glitch but continued due to the extra person and an additional spare light). But with the generosity of the "tour guides" I saw and enjoyed so much more. You can be told, you just missed xyz on the left, or.. take a look at this bit, or... there's an interesting bit of history to that. Loads of stuff you'd miss otherwise.

I did once bump into 2 people from abroad (expert cavers with years of diving and international expeditions, not novices!) getting a "guided tour" in the Dales from a retired gentleman. They got a tour and he got a weekday extra trip (I think? They were going to take him out for a pub meal afterwards?). It wasn't that they "needed help" as much as they were being sociable and able to see much more on their trip with local guidance. From what I saw it looked like it was working well for both parties!

I think the general tone of this thread is too negative. Sure, if you're local to the caves progressive visits to learn the routes is of course the best, but sometimes people are making irregular visits from other parts of the country and it really helps in that case.

 

[mrodoc]

I remember two trips into Easegill many years ago. A friend who is still caving took us on a trip to Stake Pot inlets specifically to see Cape Kennedy. We went in via Lancaster Hole and got pretty close. Unfortunately our friend who shall remain nameless came to a short traverse and he didn't like them so had blanked it from his memory meaning we were lost. We did get there in the end on a memorable trip where we went in the long way via County Pot and found them with no problem. We came out in snow and had an interesting time getting back down the hill. I did get some photos though.

 

[mrodoc]

I remember two trips into Easegill many years ago. A friend who is still caving took us on a trip to Stake Pot inlets specifically to see Cape Kennedy. We went in via Lancaster Hole and got pretty close. Unfortunately our friend who shall remain nameless came to a short traverse and he didn't like them so had blanked it from his memory meaning we were lost. We did get there in the end on a memorable trip where we went in the long way via County Pot and found them with no problem. We came out in snow and had an interesting time getting back down the hill. I did get some photos though.

The same nameless friend also led my wife and I on Dowbergill through trip in meltwater. Owing to his traverse allergy we spent about an hour near the beginning exploring the rift from roof to floor until Angie popped through a hole which was the way on. We actually had no further problems but the duck into Dow was pretty damn cold. Angie tried to avoid it by going through Hardy's Horror but fell in and after a lot of swearing appeared through the duck.

 

[caving_fox]

FFS take a copy of the survey. Why do we have commercialize everything? I have always had to find my own way around - it is half the fun.

Depends on how much free time you have any how you want to go caving.

If you're based far away and only get to do this cave once every n, then slowly learning your way form the entrance to the deeper areas can take years and years. As a personal development goal of caving it can be very (slowly) rewarding. As a team trying to see a particular place it can be incredibly frustrating especially when you know a local 'mate' can show you an efficient focused day out.

The easegill survey is incredibly comprehensive representing untold huge hours of many many people's labour . It's also very complex and not easy to use until you're roughly familiar with the system, for example after having a leader/mate show you the notable markers a few times.

 

[andrewmcleod]

The CNCC descriptions however are both excellent and highly accessible; any experienced caver should be able to go down any of the included trips using just that description and (nearly always) get where they wanted to go.

 

[Samouse1]

I suppose one suggestion, provided you've found a guide, go through the trip using the route description, as a way to learn the system, but have the "guide" at the back in case you end up going the wrong way!

How quickly the guide tells you you've gone the wrong way is entirely up their sense of humour though...

 

[caving_fox]

I suppose one suggestion, provided you've found a guide, go through the trip using the route description, as a way to learn the system, but have the "guide" at the back in case you end up going the wrong way!

How quickly the guide tells you you've gone the wrong way is entirely up their sense of humour though...

Bonus points for getting the guide lost by going down a hole they'd not been in before.

 

[langcliffe]

I suppose one suggestion, provided you've found a guide, go through the trip using the route description, as a way to learn the system, but have the "guide" at the back in case you end up going the wrong way!

How quickly the guide tells you you've gone the wrong way is entirely up their sense of humour though...

This is the technique I use for helping people to get familiar with caves.

 

[spelfish]

Surely the point is that there are at least two ways of exploring unfamiliar caves. In some, it's fun to explore alone, armed only with a short description or (less sportingly) a copy of the survey. Many, many hours can be spent in a complex cave this way... Alternatively, if you have a short time to explore a notable cave and want to ge the most out of it, why wouldn't you ask for help? How many hours would it take to explore Easegill without assistance and how many special features might you miss?
For example, I thought I knew GB well (4 trips) until I went down with a genuine expert and was shown several formations I had missed repeatedly.

 

[langcliffe]

Surely the point is that there are at least two ways of exploring unfamiliar caves. In some, it's fun to explore alone, armed only with a short description or (less sportingly) a copy of the survey. Many, many hours can be spent in a complex cave this way... Alternatively, if you have a short time to explore a notable cave and want to ge the most out of it, why wouldn't you ask for help? How many hours would it take to explore Easegill without assistance and how many special features might you miss?
For example, I thought I knew GB well (4 trips) until I went down with a genuine expert and was shown several formations I had missed repeatedly.

Moreover, if one travels several hundred miles to visit a classic complex system, one needs a good route guide of some sort to ensure that one makes the best of it.

 

[andrewmcleod]

It should also probably be noted that anyone receiving reward for caving services (i.e. not just expenses) won't necessarily be covered by BCA insurance? I don't think it would be a good precedent for cavers to start taking money in exchange for navigational services.

 

[Alex]

You say take a copy of the survey, but I find that laminators and printers are not as available as they once were, I don't have access to either now, when I did back before covid when I was office based. On the rare occasions I need a survey (I have most of them loaded into my brain lol) I am forced to take pictures of the surveys on my phone and take that, but of course phone can run out of juice or I loose it down some crack and have to go out to the surface to get a stick... but I digress.

Definitely nout wrong in asking for a trip, though I guess I would have worded it: "Anyone who knows the system fancy a trip with someone not familiar? - Free after cave pint in it for you "

 

[Greybeard]

You say take a copy of the survey, but I find that laminators and printers are not as available as they once were, I don't have access to either now, when I did back before covid when I was office based. On the rare occasions I need a survey (I have most of them loaded into my brain lol) I am forced to take pictures of the surveys on my phone and take that, but of course phone can run out of juice or I loose it down some crack and have to go out to the surface to get a stick... but I digress.

Definitely nout wrong in asking for a trip, though I guess I would have worded it: "Anyone who knows the system fancy a trip with someone not familiar? - Free after cave pint in it for you "

I have a cheap printer and use waterproof paper I get online. Fine for one trip even if it's a wet one.
I've not found any double sided paper yet so if you have a survey and a description you need extra sheets.
The Braemoor route guides for Easegill can be very useful.