looking for a guide for Ease Gill trip!

[Ed]

True and it just increases the number of idiotic things that happen nowadays where people do things that are clearly stupid but haven't been specifically warned not to instead of using their common sense.

There is no such thing as common sense.
Calculated risk - yes. Be that used the route descriptions etc or if unsure request assistance ( may be with a few bers and a meal for giving free time).

The "common sense" would be the one that allowes you to do it most confidently and safely.

In which case the OP was correct and your proposal is the stupid risk - that may get some of us out of beds due to a call out.

 

[mrodoc]

Surely the point is that there are at least two ways of exploring unfamiliar caves. In some, it's fun to explore alone, armed only with a short description or (less sportingly) a copy of the survey. Many, many hours can be spent in a complex cave this way... Alternatively, if you have a short time to explore a notable cave and want to ge the most out of it, why wouldn't you ask for help? How many hours would it take to explore Easegill without assistance and how many special features might you miss?
For example, I thought I knew GB well (4 trips) until I went down with a genuine expert and was shown several formations I had missed repeatedly.

I have never understood why taking a survey is 'unsporting'. Surveys are maps and we castigate people who go fell walking without a map. What is the use of creating a survey unless it is used? I started caving 60 years as a schoolboy and started acquring surveys as soon as I learnt they were available. In fact I have a few spare as I am unlikely to need them with the sort of caving I do nowadays so if anybody is interested let me know. Apropos of water proofing I think I still have a survey sealed in a poly bag from when I was a youngster. Laminators are handy nowadays and it is interesting see somebody has used water proof paper. To get from the Trou de Glaz to Guiers Mort some years ago I led relying on Pierre Chevalier's excellent book and it served me well.

 

[JoshW]

There is no such thing as common sense

Saw a great piece the other day on this, basically stating that common sense can only be common if everybody’s brains work in the same way, which we know to be a nonsense.

It was aimed primarily at reducing it’s ‘use’ in spaces that are trying to be inclusive, particularly employers looking to get neurodivergent people into work.

With my inclusivity/accessibility hat on, I’m now actively trying to avoid using the phrase

 

[Jenny P]

I used to do a lot in OFD, which is as complicated as the Easegill system, particularly if you start from Top Entrance. If I took someone down who didn't know the cave I always told them that I'd take them where they wanted to go but I would then expect them to lead me out again.

I was "taught" the cave in this way by others and found it an excellent way of learning the routes through to various places. On the way down you have to stop at intervals and look back at the way you have come, so it forces you to think about where you are in relation to various "markers" which you can memorise. I found it enlightening to be at the back on the way out, behind someone who was working it out for themselves, and I didn't say anything if they took a wrong turn as they always sussed it out for themselves before they'd gone too far wrong.

The added bonus was the enormous survey on the wall of the SWCC Long Common Room, so you could have a look and discuss where you were going beforehand; and then look again at the survey after the trip to see where you'd been and how it related to other parts of the cave.

 

[Ed]

Saw a great piece the other day on this, basically stating that common sense can only be common if everybody’s brains work in the same way, which we know to be a nonsense.

It was aimed primarily at reducing it’s ‘use’ in spaces that are trying to be inclusive, particularly employers looking to get neurodivergent people into work.

With my inclusivity/accessibility hat on, I’m now actively trying to avoid using the phrase

First rule of risk assessments and Health and Safty...common sense doesn't exist

 

[Chocolate fireguard]

First rule of risk assessments and Health and Safty...common sense doesn't exist

But where does that lead?
To the idea that if an employee hasn't specifically been told to do/not to do something, no matter how daft it might have been, they are not responsible for what happened to them?
That can't be sensible.

 

[ChrisB]

To the idea that if an employee hasn't specifically been told to do/not to do something, no matter how daft it might have been, they are not responsible for what happened to them?

I think people can be trained to think for themselves and make decisions, whereas 'common sense' implies a basic ability to do that without training.

 

[Chocolate fireguard]

I think people can be trained to think for themselves and make decisions, whereas 'common sense' implies a basic ability to do that without training.

Yes it does.
The notion that people can't think for themselves or make decisions without specific training is a very modern, and very strange, idea.

 

[Roger W]

'Tis a long while ago, and nothing to do with caving, but I remember watching someone in a laboratory deliberately put his hand into the blue flame of a Bunsen burner, then withdraw it quickly with the remark "Cor! That's hot!"

As far as I know, the person in question had not received specific training in the hotness of gas burners and flames in general.

 

[Lankyman]

As far as I know, the person in question had not received specific training in the hotness of gas burners and flames in general.

One of my earliest experiments regarding the concept of 'common sense' involved heating pennies up with a Bunsen and leaving them lying around to be picked up by the unwitting greedy. You'd think a coin on the floor being watched avidly by a bunch of sniggering adolescents would provoke caution? Alas, no. Common sense doesn't exist.

 

[JoshW]

But where does that lead?
To the idea that if an employee hasn't specifically been told to do/not to do something, no matter how daft it might have been, they are not responsible for what happened to them?
That can't be sensible.

I don’t think that’s where that leads to.

Just because an organisation has assessed something as a risk, their mitigations might not be to train or tell anyone they might just see it as an acceptable risk. Even though they don’t do anything about the risk it should still be recognised as one.

Not everyone has the same ability to see risks. An easy example might be painting the edge of steps (nosings) a contrasting colour for those with impaired vision. There isn’t a big sign saying ‘steps upcoming’ and people haven’t had to receive training on how to go up steps, but in order to enable people with impaired vision (and many others) to not fall down the steps, the risk has been assessed and mitigated in a small way.

 

[mikem]

One of my earliest experiments regarding the concept of 'common sense' involved heating pennies up with a Bunsen and leaving them lying around to be picked up by the unwitting greedy. You'd think a coin on the floor being watched avidly by a bunch of sniggering adolescents would provoke caution? Alas, no. Common sense doesn't exist.

Coins are not normally hot, so that wouldn't be "common", & Josh has assessed a risk for a specific group.

The HSE regularly use "common sense" in their publications:

Good practice guidelines - HSE

A page outlining how to implement good practice guidelines, to the extent feasible, will help reduce the risks of shift work for employees.

www.hse.gov.uk

 

[spelfish]

I have never understood why taking a survey is 'unsporting'. Surveys are maps and we castigate people who go fell walking without a map. What is the use of creating a survey unless it is used? I started caving 60 years as a schoolboy and started acquring surveys as soon as I learnt they were available. In fact I have a few spare as I am unlikely to need them with the sort of caving I do nowadays so if anybody is interested let me know. Apropos of water proofing I think I still have a survey sealed in a poly bag from when I was a youngster. Laminators are handy nowadays and it is interesting see somebody has used water proof paper. To get from the Trou de Glaz to Guiers Mort some years ago I led relying on Pierre Chevalier's excellent book and it served me well.

'Unsporting' may be too harsh. My point is that the more prior information you have, the less pure the experience. Rather like the difference between climbing a route on-sight and rehearsing the moves beforehand.

 

[alanw]

Common sense would mean not using a typeface where "l" (lower case L) and "I" (upper case letter that comes after H) are almost indistinguishable. My pension provider is going to be at the end of an uncomfortable phone call shortly.

 

[langcliffe]

'Unsporting' may be too harsh. My point is that the more prior information you have, the less pure the experience. Rather like the difference between climbing a route on-sight and rehearsing the moves beforehand.

Absolutely - to get the real, pure experience, @mrdoc could have extended his holiday by a few months and worked it all for himself. Although he would still have had the advantage of knowing that there was a way through.

 

[andrewmcleod]

You could just as well argue that going caving with someone who knows the way is cheating; a lot more of my caving has been done off laminates and descriptions than going with people who already knew the way.

 

[Space Doubt Caver]

this post has long outlived it's purpose,

 

[Badlad]

I agree. Lets move on