Marble Steps and connecting the 3 Counties to Keld Head / Kingsdale

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georgenorth

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Moderator comment: Posts moved form original thread in "Descent" section https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?threads/descent-308.34122/#post-420802

Pitlamp said:
Really looking forward to reading the whole magazine! :D
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This goes without saying! I was especially looking forward to reading the 3 Counties Traverse article due to my personal involvement in the exploration of several sections of it though (along with many others!).

The Eastern Front, The Ireby-Rift connection, Transpennine Express, The Whirlpool dig, Blissful Creek and Trippple Creek, AKA Hole, The Notts 2-LJ connection. There’s a few gaps that we still need to fill in, but we’re working on it!
 
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A dry connection seems incredibly unlikely, unless anyone fancies digging into the continuation of the Eastern Front! I’m 99% certain of where it intercepts the valley side in Kingsdale though.

The new sump in Marble Steps is a promising site for connecting the 3 Counties to Keld Head / Kingsdale, but there’s a very long way to go yet. Fingers crossed for some dry weather so that Jamie can see where he’s going underwater!
 
georgenorth said:
A dry connection seems incredibly unlikely, unless anyone fancies digging into the continuation of the Eastern Front! I’m 99% certain of where it intercepts the valley side in Kingsdale though.

The new sump in Marble Steps is a promising site for connecting the 3 Counties to Keld Head / Kingsdale, but there’s a very long way to go yet. Fingers crossed for some dry weather so that Jamie can see where he’s going underwater!
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Glancing at my copy of Adventures Underground (survey on pg 70 to be precise) do you have any idea which of the various leads the new sump might be likely to link with in the Marble Steps branch?
 
georgenorth said:
A dry connection seems incredibly unlikely, unless anyone fancies digging into the continuation of the Eastern Front! I’m 99% certain of where it intercepts the valley side in Kingsdale though.

The new sump in Marble Steps is a promising site for connecting the 3 Counties to Keld Head / Kingsdale, but there’s a very long way to go yet. Fingers crossed for some dry weather so that Jamie can see where he’s going underwater!
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Marble Steps Pot is currently isolated, not connected to the 3 Counties. Are you hopeful the new sump in Marble Steps will go both ways to connect to the 3 Counties and Keld Head/ Kingsdale. Now that would be something.
 
Pie Muncher said:
Marble Steps Pot is currently isolated, not connected to the 3 Counties. Are you hopeful the new sump in Marble Steps will go both ways to connect to the 3 Counties and Keld Head/ Kingsdale. Now that would be something.
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Rick Stanton's 1990s dives in the other Marble Steps sump came very close to Rift Pot before encountering an obstruction requiring digging, but it was never accurately surveyed so we can't be sure exactly. Tony Waltham's approximation in Cave & Karst of the Yorkshire Dales puts it within 15m horizontal distance of All Fools Passage. If @georgenorth's high-level passages don't materialise, that seems like next best option for linking Marble Steps with the rest of the Three Counties.
 
FYI - In the 1960s Ken Ashton, a young scientist caver from ULSA, conducted a number of flood pulse experiments in the Marble Steps. These were done in both high and low water conditions and led him to conclude that there would be 'open' passage in low water conditions of approximately 400 yards. Pitlamp discovered a passage in the Marble Steps branch of Keld Head which appears to head in the right direction and was named after Ashton. Whatever the reality, it is clear that the two are hydrologically connected and the new sump would seem to be an excellent site for progress. I think the distance is still 7-800m straight line.

No one has looked at the original 'overflow' sump in MS since Rick Stanton. I believe this is for good reason as the descent was pretty challenging to say the least. It ends, to quote the NSI.

At 330 m from the shaft base there is a sudden ascent of a gravel slope to -15 m at which point the passage is blocked. The way on is split into two by a rock rib and would require digging to progress
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To me a very interesting site is the sump at the end of the Red Herring Series in Large Pot. This is perched 10m above Keld head and lies in an approximate mid point between the two. Unfortunately, the dives there have found it silted up on each occasion. Maybe this is where Ashton's 400 yards exists.

Connecting from the MS sump to Rift Pot is possible of course but passage development ages are very different so a lot of luck would need to be involved. I still think that line of weakness between MS, Rift and Low Douk, hold above water possibilities. God knows where though as between us all we have just about hammered every possible dig.

@georgenorth There is a place in Rift that we had a short dig at with I think would be well worth a proper hit. It is little visited but quite close to MS 80-90m. We'd spent a lot of time at the Crystal intlet dig at the time and were fairly fed up with all the trips down there and haven't been back. Nowadays most of the team would struggle to get there. If you want to take it on give me a shout.
:dig: :)
 
David Rose said:
How close is the Marble Steps inlet to Keld Head now? How does it end?
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The nearest point in Keld Head is the furthest extent of Southern Branch which was (I believe) last dived to by John Cordingley in March 2013. It is still open and ongoing, 1350m from dive base, described as wide, low and gravelly. By my reckoning this is still 900m from the end of Jamie's dive line, although only 300m from the nearest point on Eastern Front.
 
I have speculated that the Southern Branch is likely to bring in the Low Douk water and pass underneath the Eastern Front. The Low Douk sump gets too low for progress and the end of the Southern Branch is described as similar. The diver does suggest the Southern Branch has the main flow but I wonder if the area around the Western branch will be found to carry the MS waters. I think the Ashton Shaft might have been described as carrying flow. @Pitlamp might clarify?
 
Southern Passage does seem to be heading directly for the sink in the floor of The Eastern Front beneath The Cumbrian Aven. Obviously it’s possible that the Southern Passage and the Cumbrian have both formed on the same discontinuity and are hydrologically entirely separate! I think there’s about 50m vertical separation between them.

The closest point in the Marble Steps Branch to Marble Steps Pot is Western Passage / Cloud Passage, the final section of which is un-surveyed. We’ve estimated it’s about 650m from the new sump in Marble Steps, a figure which is unlikely to be a million miles out.

Regarding the Ashton flood pulse test, my theory is that the delay was caused by the water having to filter through the choke between the floor of the lower main chamber, and the new sump. The boulders in the choke at the sump are almost all gritstone, so I suspect that it’s a pretty straight shaft filled with about 65m of mud and rocks. We do have a way to prove this experimentally, but it’s not top of the to-do list!
 
Not much to add to this other than that an initial “look” at the new MSP sump looks promising.
It is however challenging territory at the moment. The first part of the sump is a slightly off vertical rift which is easily passable… but… only in certain places. So some very careful line laying is required to make sure the route back in navigable. Which is on going.
It seems likely that it’ll level out at about 20m like the “other” sump and a quick glance at the compass showed it heading towards Rift but of course it could do anything.
The hope is at the base of the rift it’ll develop into something much more pleasant and probably similar in nature to the upstream end of the marble steps branch of KH. But who knows.
It’s an interesting project but like the marble steps branch it seems to need long ish settled periods for the vis to be good enough to lay much string, and certainly through the initial snugglier part it would be comforting to know it’s laid in the right place….
Big team effort and all most welcome to join in, my sedan chair doesn’t carry itself. (Seriously, interesting project to join in with and if folk want to lend a hand you’d be more than welcome, have a word with myself or @georgenorth as it’s always handy to have folk who might be available for a trip when conditions are optimal)
 
Sorry folks, I'm slightly behind with this conversation as life's been busy last couple of days.
I can add a few remarks which may help shed light on some of the points above:

* The "main" Marble Steps sump was never surveyed at all. (Not my fault as it wasn't me involved!) So any comments re the close proximity to anywhere else are unreliable.

* I agree with Badlad that the Red Herring sump is in a very interesting place. But it's very badly silted up. When I dived it I had a really good go. Others have also dived it and arrived at the same conclusion. The best bet (and this would be less than easy to set up) might be a pumping exercise so it can be looked at in the dry. There are two small airbells so it's shallow. Maybe an experimental pumping exercise first to see what the water level does, before anything more ambitious? A decent dam would need to be created to hold the water, obviously. Not easy.

(As an aside, on the trip when I dived the RHS sump someone dropped a cylinder down a 12 metre pitch when I was at the bottom. I saw it coming and you've never seen anyone cave as fast in your life! It didn't explode but it was dented and had to be scrapped.)

* I'm confident that the Southern Branch has nothing to do with downstream sumps either in Low Douk Cave or Marble Steps Pot. This is because the water is gin clear. It's percolation-fed from the bare limestone plateau further to the SW. I've pondered about putting some detectors in Southern & Western Branches next time we get some decent vis (April / May?) to see if a trace can be got from Western Front.

* Ashton Shaft has no flow. It's an unusually large solution dome guided by a significant fault (one of the two faults seen in many areas of the Marble Steps Branch and which can be clearly seen in the west Kingsdale crags above the road when viewed from the Illusion Pot side). The main way on is Cloud Passage.

* Southern Branch is all fully surveyed and the current limit is at 1,400 m. The most recent survey is in CDG Newsletter 231 (April 2024) across pages 4 & 5.

* Cloud Passage has yet to be properly surveyed (it's blackout on the way back from line laying) but many bearings have been collected so the existing drawing (see reference above) is pretty close to reality. The present terminus is well past Kail Pot, beyond the wall on the NW side of the Turbary Road and just into the High Plains field.

One day . . .
 
Thanks Pitlamp. I’d been pondering the feasibility of pumping the Red Herring Series sump. I’ve not been, but it’s encouraging to hear that it’s not an entirely ludicrous proposition!

We’ll have to go and take a closer look at some point - there’s already too many projects waiting for drier weather though!
 
I forgot to say - for the benefit of most reading this, the Red Herring Series sump in Large Pot is perched about 20m vertically above the level of Keld Head.
 
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