Natural England
- Thread starter graham
- Start date
AndyF
New member
Well the answer I guess is to asses the actual, real impact Natural England have had on caves in the UK.
I don't really have any idea on that, but I can't think of any specific changes or conservation measures they have been responsible for. There is some access control I can think of, but not sure they have made any real change to the relevent caves.
I don't really have any idea on that, but I can't think of any specific changes or conservation measures they have been responsible for. There is some access control I can think of, but not sure they have made any real change to the relevent caves.
ChrisJC
Well-known member
There is a balance between preserving what is known, and permitting activities that extend into the unknown.
It is my opinion that NE (and other public bodies) are far too heavily biased towards preserving the known at the expense of any potential discoveries. Not just caving, but mine exploring, and on to 'change' in general.
Therefore I wouldn't shed a tear if they vanished in a puff of smoke.
Chris.
P.S. Anyway, what is left of England that is natural anyway?
It is my opinion that NE (and other public bodies) are far too heavily biased towards preserving the known at the expense of any potential discoveries. Not just caving, but mine exploring, and on to 'change' in general.
Therefore I wouldn't shed a tear if they vanished in a puff of smoke.
Chris.
P.S. Anyway, what is left of England that is natural anyway?
nickwilliams
Well-known member
If NE is to be abolished, are we as cavers content for there to be no statutory agency with powers to protect caves and those aspects of the surface environment which impact on them?
In fact, of course, the UK has treaty obligations which will require there to be a statutory body to take responsibility for at least some of the functions which are currently the responsibility of NE. Cavers might find that if we were to compile and present a coherent case for protective powers during the formation of a new body then we get listened to. What priorities and powers would the caving community like to see for any such body?
I'll start with one: powers to properly enforce legislation preventing the dumping of waste, including dead animals and rubbish, in dolines and cave entrances.
Nick.
In fact, of course, the UK has treaty obligations which will require there to be a statutory body to take responsibility for at least some of the functions which are currently the responsibility of NE. Cavers might find that if we were to compile and present a coherent case for protective powers during the formation of a new body then we get listened to. What priorities and powers would the caving community like to see for any such body?
I'll start with one: powers to properly enforce legislation preventing the dumping of waste, including dead animals and rubbish, in dolines and cave entrances.
Nick.
AndyF
New member
nickwilliams said:
They both sound like jos for DEFRA to me.
This is the problem with many of the quangos with a specific remit, they just overlap with other agencies, yet duplicate entire structures of offices, auditing, HR, management etc. etc.
IMHO amalgamation of any duties into larger organisation is more effieicent.
We have the:
Joint Nature Conservation Committee
Natural England
Scottish Natural Heritage
Countryside council for Wales
National Rivers Authority
Council of Nature Conservation and the Countryside
Environment Agency
Department of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
Surely there is overlap in here..
exsumper
New member
The first rule with politicians, is don't encourage them!. With regard to input from cavers we should learn from experience; by all means we should put our view forward, but only when neccessary; we shouldn't try to be too clever by half, and try and predict future events. During the SSSI fiasco in the 1980's, certain caving politicians "got into bed" with the NCC (Nature Consevancy Council) , and to quote a phrase, "were dazzled by their own brilliance ". The impact of their brilliance on Mendip caving, was that several Mendip caves were closed for a considerable time, and serious damage was caused to caver-landowner relations. It was only because of the strenous behind the scenes negotiations of less egocentric and pragmatic local cavers; that the damage was not longer lasting, and that we didn't end up with the sort of caver-landowner relations that pertain in other parts of the country.
Hughie
Active member
AndyF said:
Steady on, Andy.
National Rivers Authority hasn't existed since 1996, when it was replaced (or renamed) as the Environment Agency.
All of the quangos you mention come under the umbrella of DEFRA - not in addition to DEFRA.
Countryside Council for Wales, and Scottish Natural Heritage are part of their respective Parliament and Assembly. However there are considerable overlaps.
nickwilliams said:
Nick - this isn't the remit of Natural England. It is (and I suspect always will be) the remit of Environment Agency. Legislation is already in place to discourage and fine/prosecute offenders. Legislation wont prevent such dumping - merely discourage it. From an Agri business point of view - we have to dispose of waste in an approved manner - with the required paperwork to prove it - from waste plastics disposal to fallen stock removal.
Not sure, but that may contravene SSSI rules and regs. (I'd have to check, though.).
nickwilliams
Well-known member
Hughie said:
I was already aware of that in general, although the specifics have passed me by. What I had in mind with my suggestion was firstly that we should identify a 'shopping list' of desirable protections first, and then identify whether or not they already existed, and how best to enforce them.
Nick.
graham
New member
Hughie said:
Maybe not but it'll soon be one the Seven Wonders of the World list, I'm sure.
FWIW I agree with Nick (where have I heard that before?) that there is a statutory obligation to deal with these things and that we should be given input to ensure that caves get the protection they deserve,
kay
Well-known member
AndyF said:
There's the Northern Caves conservation project http://www.northerncavemonitoring.org.uk/
Gunnerfleet is a lot nicer now, just as one example, thanks to Natural England.
martinm
New member
AndyF said:
Erm, what about the the funding of loads of conservation work in the Peak District? Eg:- Rowter, Gautries, Bagshawe, Stoney and Bradwell Dale cleanups, various caves in the Manifold area. Also funding of the Peak District SSSI Cave Conservation Monitoring Scheme web site at:- http://www.peakcavemonitoring.org.uk/, hosting SSSI conservation meetings at their offices. I could go on, but...
Andy Sparrow
Active member
exsumper said:
This was well before your time, Alex, and the version of events you report would be that relayed to you by those who have their own agenda, which probably includes the character assasination of persons deemed to be out of favour by the self-appointed hierarchy of Mendip. As someone who was around at the time I would have to say that
kay said:
indeed it is - dave and i did both the upper and lower caves last week - a very nice little mooch
thought the " connection crawl " looked hellacious - screw that
PS - have the " sheepskull shrines " in the lowercave main chamber been there since before it got sealed - or are they a product of the unblocking / subsequent vistiors ???
also to add - whitewell pot - bowland now has e new and safe entrance which it would not have if NE hadnt paid for all the materials etc etc
Andy Sparrow
Active member
Andy Sparrow said:
Sorry, cut myself off there. I was going to say that I recall the problems were caused by the way that English Nature (was it EN then?) imposed draconian restrictions on the landowners, which rather supports the case of those who fear yet another quango type body. It is, I feel, a re-writing of history to imply that the root cause was cavers themselves.
kay
Well-known member
Andyj23UK said:
Despite the letter in last month's Descent, as far as I am aware Gunnerfleet never was sealed. I certainly have been in it more than once between 1997 and 2009 (during the time it was allegedly "blocked").
The rubbish filled one of the shakeholes to the top, blocking the entrance in that shakehole (and also washing in to the cave), but the other shakehole was free of rubbish and the entrance perfectly accessible, leading to a slimy passage over a vice, various bits of fireplace and kitchen paraphernalia, and past sheep-dip cans and discarded plastic sacks before reaching the rest of the lower cave. On my first visit there were at least a dozen tastefully arranged sheep skulls in the chamber; when we cleared it out I don't think think there were more than half a dozen. How many were there when you were in?
exsumper
New member
I know it was slightly before my time Andy. I don't however understand your comments about some imaginary agenda of character assassination by some self appointed Mendip hierarchy; That sounds like paranoia to me.
As to my sources, I was looking through some old BB's for some historical info on Eastwater Cavern when this post came up. Coincidently the issue I was looking through (May 1987) contained a full account of the fiasco, along with the relevant documents, and copies of the correspondence between the NCC, CSCC C&A officer of the time and the NCA. My interpretation of the events, is based on a reading of the documents and the article. I never said cavers were to blame, the impression |I got was that most cavers were on the side of the landowners apart from one or two caving politicians who as I said "dazzled by their own brilliance" somehow managed to pour petrol on the fire!.
As to my sources, I was looking through some old BB's for some historical info on Eastwater Cavern when this post came up. Coincidently the issue I was looking through (May 1987) contained a full account of the fiasco, along with the relevant documents, and copies of the correspondence between the NCC, CSCC C&A officer of the time and the NCA. My interpretation of the events, is based on a reading of the documents and the article. I never said cavers were to blame, the impression |I got was that most cavers were on the side of the landowners apart from one or two caving politicians who as I said "dazzled by their own brilliance" somehow managed to pour petrol on the fire!.
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