Northern Caving and Lockdown 2.0

Stuart France

Active member
Hi there people of England.  Lockdown Version 2.0 in Wales ends on Sunday night.  Caving will resume, well here anyway!

Of course politicians are going to do the only thing they're capable of which is create more laws.  They know nothing else.  Got a problem?  Create some laws.  You find yourself in charge of a galloping cockup?  More laws.  Laws still not working?  More laws.

The Welsh Government's L2 law runs to 6,000 words and the official guidance on how to interpret it is 13,000 words.  It's that complicated that it takes over twice the number of words to explain its ramifications.  Give me a break.

But there are signs of hope.  Wales First Minister, Mark Drakeford, has just said:
"... more important than any rules, regulations or guidance, which we put in place will be the way each one of us responds to the virus.  We can introduce new laws but these will only be successful if we all of us do everything we can to reduce our exposure to the virus by keeping the contacts we have with other people to a minimum ? at home; in work and when we go out.  We need to do the minimum ? not the maximum, which the rules allow.  Our real strength lies in the choices we make and the actions we take together."

Is the penny finally dropping, at least in Cardiff, that winning hearts and minds might be more effective than self-belief that coronavirus has a legislative cure?


 

ChrisJC

Well-known member
Stuart France said:
But there are signs of hope.  Wales First Minister, Mark Drakeford, has just said:
"... more important than any rules, regulations or guidance, which we put in place will be the way each one of us responds to the virus.  We can introduce new laws but these will only be successful if we all of us do everything we can to reduce our exposure to the virus by keeping the contacts we have with other people to a minimum ? at home; in work and when we go out.  We need to do the minimum ? not the maximum, which the rules allow.  Our real strength lies in the choices we make and the actions we take together."

To me that is stating the bleedin' obvious. However, it is clear that most of the idiots out there in the population see the legislation as a challenge and try to pick holes and find ways around it.

If I were PM, the first month of lockdown would be 'stay the f*ck at home', thereafter it would be 'do what the f*ck you like, on your head be it'.
Sensible people would stay at home. Idiots would form a queue at the local ICU.

Chris.
 

Roger W

Well-known member
ChrisJC said:
If I were PM, the first month of lockdown would be 'stay the f*ck at home', thereafter it would be 'do what the f*ck you like, on your head be it'.
Sensible people would stay at home. Idiots would form a queue at the local ICU.

Chris.

The problem is, though, that with the idiots forming a queue at the ICUs and occupying every bed and ventilator therein, there would be no room for honest, sensible people who are unlucky or unwell enough to need emergency treatment. 
 

nearlywhite

Active member
Fjell said:
It?s never been obvious to me how you give a disease for which you now have immunity to someone else

Bit of a stretch to assume immunity seeing as we are seeing re-infection and multiple strains.

Fjell said:
...the brutal truth is those dying under 70-80 are largely obese.

No the brutal truth is that we have lots of obese 70-80 year olds - More or Less did an episode about it a few weeks ago and found that when you isolate weight as an issue it only increases your risk by 25%. Of course this ignores that Obese people are also more likely to have other diseases that also make you vulnerable. In my experience I've seen more relatively healthy people fall foul of the virus when you compare it to the standard make up of the inpatient population.
 

RobinGriffiths

Well-known member
Fairy Hole? Could be an option. I'm in Wales and we're coming out of lockdown on Monday. Does that mean I can go to Fairy Holes and come back home, or must I stay in England for the month? I know if I can be arsed I could dig this out of some gov.uk website or other. But even then, I'm sure that Michael Gove would contradict the advice when he's next on telly.
 

CNCC

Well-known member
A further statement from the CNCC (https://cncc.org.uk/covid-19/index.php):

Lockdown II is coming to an end and after 2nd December, England will return to the three-tier system of Coronavirus restrictions. The Government have now published details on what tier each area will initially be in.

Northern England will be entirely Tier 2-3, with the major caving areas of North Yorkshire and Cumbria falling into the more liberal Tier 2, and Lancashire into stricter Tier 3. This may change as tiers are due for review every two weeks. Within both of these tiers, the ?rule of six? applies to meetings in outdoor public spaces. This means that across our entire region, caving in groups of up to six people will once again be permissible, which will no doubt come as welcome news for those keen to get out and about with their friends.

Although travelling between differently tiered areas seems to be discouraged, the language of the guidance stops short of totally prohibiting this, leaving this decision to personal judgement of the risks involved.

Furthermore, there is no reason that club huts in Tier 2 areas cannot reopen to visitors from same households/support bubbles for overnight stays.

Caving promotes a healthy, active lifestyle. We therefore encourage people to take advantage of these new freedoms and to get back to enjoying responsible caving if they are comfortable doing so.

Please use the online booking system for caves on Ingleborough, Leck and Casterton Fells to avoid encountering other groups. Use common sense in other areas and check the CNCC website for up to date information. Cave well within your capabilities, remembering that your fitness may not be what it was pre-lockdown, and consider winter weather conditions and the suitability of your trip. A cave rescue incident would be complicated and would expose our cave rescue volunteers to elevated risk from the virus.

We wish you all a happy return to caving, in what, we hope, is the beginning of the end for the pandemic.
 

mikem

Well-known member
There are more restricted suggestions on which outdoor spaces tier 3 should visit, compared to tier 2.
 

Fjell

Well-known member
mikem said:
There are more restricted suggestions on which outdoor spaces tier 3 should visit, compared to tier 2.

On the scale of things, millions of people from tier 3 areas going Xmas shopping in tier 2 areas is probably going to be more of a thing. Just blend in on your way to some wind-swept hill.

Bradford, Leeds and Hull are in tier 3 whilst York, Skipton and Harrogate are in tier 2. It will be carnage. At least the Harry Potter shops will be open, which will be relief to many. And Bettys, thank god.


 

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
Even during this lockdown there have been lots of folk out on the hills and a few cavers, hardly noticeable, among them.  You've also got to remember that local communities include cavers.
 

Alex

Well-known member
Now the lockdown is lifted it seems things are even more restrictive at least for those of us not lucky enough to live in the Dales.

So the "With regards to in your area" clause, is it a legal requirement or not? If it's not why are police stopping people, I hear NYP are stopping people, though that was West Yorkshire border? It seems it's worse for me then the actual lock down as there are no buggering caves in my area, except shitty stone mines I have already explored. I guess asked in the Dales I guess I can say, I am on a rescue practice, then. (Caving is practising for caving rescue loosly, so kind of true).

Anyone here got stopped yet, it seems like they can ask you not to continue but can't force you, is that correct?

P.s. What does "Your area mean" County, local authority all areas that a tier 3? I guess Ease gill is still in Lancashire so I could spend the next 6 months in there! It's seems unfair that the local restrictions are harder then the national lockdown.
 

Fjell

Well-known member
You are overthinking it. If you are intending to drive to Bull Pot Farm and then go home, then I would suggest no discernible harm can be done.

On a practical level, if you take the Roman road north to Casterton from the A65, you are in Lancs until about half way to the turn off. I assure you the area is unguarded, and you can blend in with the large number of people visiting Kirkby Lonsdale from afar.

Last Sat there was one permit issued in the Dales when I looked. We seem to be at the point that CRO has more rescues of walkers every week than cavers going caving. Those walkers were not arrested after being rescued as far as I know.
 
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