Novice
- Thread starter Rhys
- Start date
Peter Burgess
New member
How about Entry Level Caver? No? Thought not.
Peter Burgess
New member
I don't think we use the term novice very much in WCMS. "New Member" is about as close as it gets, as we are just as interested in members getting established in the various activities of the club as we are for them to gain caving experience. Some new members we have had joined with considerably more caving experience that I ever hope to have. When referring to novices, we do run some Beginners Trips and have had a few New Members Weekends, when both beginners and experienced new members attended, which was great.
kay
Well-known member
The term is used to cover a variety of meanings, eg:
a) someone who has never been in a cave before
b) someone who has been in one or two caves but doesn't really yet know their way around
c) someone who has been in quite a few caves but relies on someone else for routefinding, decisions on water levels etc
d) someone who is clumsy as hell and totally unable to get round a cave without damaging anything that can be damaged
e) someone who is perfectly able to take their own decisions and find their way around the cave without causing damage, but who doesn't do SRT
Equally, there are different reasons for wanting to know whether someone is a 'novice', eg:
i) the cave is delicate and easily trashed by the unthinking
ii) those on the trip don't want to have their trip curtailed because someone can't get past an obstacle
iii) the landowner doesn't like the idea of people coming to grief in his cave
I think 'novice' is a reasonable term for those in categories a and b, ie (relatively) new to caving. It ceases to be appropriate somewhere in c,, once someone is a reasonably competent caver but has not become used to organising their own trips. d and e is where we get to 'perpetual novice' territory.
It would help if we were able to distinguish between different types of 'novice'. Someone in a or b might be a lot better than someone in e at getting up and down climbs. Depending on the cave it matters whether the 'novice' you have with you is a good climber who has never been in a cave before, or someone who is completely at home in cold wet darkness but can't climb to save his life.
As to whether the term is patronising - I think there's something to do with the attitude of the people using the term. If all around you value technical competence above all else, then 'novice' can become a term of disparagement, rather than simply someone at the beginning of the learning process. We could use 'beginner' or 'new member', but wouldn't they end up with the same emotional overtones as 'novice'?
a) someone who has never been in a cave before
b) someone who has been in one or two caves but doesn't really yet know their way around
c) someone who has been in quite a few caves but relies on someone else for routefinding, decisions on water levels etc
d) someone who is clumsy as hell and totally unable to get round a cave without damaging anything that can be damaged
e) someone who is perfectly able to take their own decisions and find their way around the cave without causing damage, but who doesn't do SRT
Equally, there are different reasons for wanting to know whether someone is a 'novice', eg:
i) the cave is delicate and easily trashed by the unthinking
ii) those on the trip don't want to have their trip curtailed because someone can't get past an obstacle
iii) the landowner doesn't like the idea of people coming to grief in his cave
I think 'novice' is a reasonable term for those in categories a and b, ie (relatively) new to caving. It ceases to be appropriate somewhere in c,, once someone is a reasonably competent caver but has not become used to organising their own trips. d and e is where we get to 'perpetual novice' territory.
It would help if we were able to distinguish between different types of 'novice'. Someone in a or b might be a lot better than someone in e at getting up and down climbs. Depending on the cave it matters whether the 'novice' you have with you is a good climber who has never been in a cave before, or someone who is completely at home in cold wet darkness but can't climb to save his life.
As to whether the term is patronising - I think there's something to do with the attitude of the people using the term. If all around you value technical competence above all else, then 'novice' can become a term of disparagement, rather than simply someone at the beginning of the learning process. We could use 'beginner' or 'new member', but wouldn't they end up with the same emotional overtones as 'novice'?
graham
New member
And this is where the thing gets wholly subjective and one has to rely on the judgement of those leading trips. I don't believe that it is possible to learn how to move in a delicate, well decorated cave with just one trip in Goatchurch, however much of a natural one might be. However, most will have picked up the basics of this after 3-4 trips. Not all, though, and a good reason for not being too prescriptive about definitions, some people take far longer to learn these skills. Some may never achieve them.Rhys said:
G
george
Guest
"Naturally Un-gifted"
I love it! A very 'pc' insult, there's a couple of colleagues at work who fit into this category and i think i will inform them of this tomorrow!
I love it! A very 'pc' insult, there's a couple of colleagues at work who fit into this category and i think i will inform them of this tomorrow!
oli
New member
I use 'freshery type' to denote people who haven't started to organise trips of their own, unless they've annoyed me, in which case I refer to them as 'idiots.' I use 'adult' rather than 'experienced caver,' unless I want them to do something for me, in which case I refer to them as 'speliogods.'
gus horsley
New member
I've never taken any nuns caving so I've never had the opportunity to use the term "novice". I'm not sure what I would refer to them in a PC way as "religiously challenged" doesn't seem to work somehow. However, there could be a certain amount of mileage in pointing out a stalgmite that resembles a cock.
I'll get back to work now....
I'll get back to work now....
"Novice" I find okay if the person has never been before (if they have it's not new to them)Rhys said:
"Beginner" I much prefer and tend to use most often (up to 3 or 4 trips I guess). Implies they're going somewhere with it rather than just trying it once.
"Fresher" (uni clubs) I abhor, very condescending. Status as university (or elsewhere) has no relevance underground - and I found a lot of beginner cavers are not in their first year anyway.
So Rhys, I think I agree with you. It's important to treat people with respect whatever their caving ability (AND to show it in everything you do!). Otherwise they might just not come back.
And never miss an oppportunity to point out the giant phallus!
whitelackington
New member
Do you mean like Upper Flood Swallet?Elaine said:
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