NRW/WG have terminated the CAL agreement (again!)

Dave Tyson

Dave Tyson

Member
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but CAL have just had a legal letter from NRW formally terminating the agreement which provided access to certain mines on NRW/WG land.

We went through this last year, however NRW did not follow the required legal steps and decided in the end to backtrack. This time there will be no backtrack, though it is possible that NRW may try and negotiate a different contract with CAL. We do not know the exact reason for termination but surmise that the Welsh Government want NRW to generate more money and so it is likely that any new agreement may come with financial burdens in one form or another. This is unacceptable and NRW have been notified of this in the termination acknowledgement. None of the CAL directors want to be in a position where mine-explorers/cavers have to pay to access a site and anyway it would preclude CAL using the BCA insurance cover.

The agreement only applies to sites owned by WG or NRW and listed on the website. Sites owned by Roy Fellows such as Dinas are unaffected. The agreement will terminate on the 20th November so if you want to legally access any of the sites then do so before that date, after that the 11th commandment applies. There is no need to notify CAL of any new trips as I will not have to send the summary statistics to NRW this year...

Make the most of the time remaining! We will probably keep the mine description/parking pages on the up website online for armchair cavers :)

I have asked Gethin Thomas and Miles Moulding about the situation with Rhiwbach but they haven't replied yet. My guess is NRW will ask them to change the access code, but I am not sure if they would have to report 'alien' visitors after 20th November - it seems unlikely.

We kept our side of the agreement for 8 years and tried to support easy and equitable access so its a shame that it has come to an end.

Dave
for and on behalf of the CAL directors
 
Pete K

Pete K

Well-known member
That's a real shame. Thanks for your work over the years. I have appreciated having some places to go where you didn't need to sneak around as much.
 
cavemanmike

cavemanmike

Well-known member
Thanks for all your efforts over the years Dave.
So it Look’s like we are back to the bad old day’s of sneaking around.what a shame
 
Cantclimbtom

Cantclimbtom

Well-known member
Thanks for all your help to date...

If the agreement is terminated then access cannot be authorised by you, do you have plans to replace any existing locks (where relevant) with new ones to prevent any further access? If you do so considering it may be at your own expense you might find the very cheap Master 3 digit combination locks might meet any residual liabilities and keep small kids out etc while providing level of security you might desire
 
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Stuart France

Active member
CAL has not fitted any locks anywhere. The Rhiwbach padlocks belong to the commercial operators that use this site, and we have a code sharing agreement with them, at least until 20/11/2022 when Gwydyr Forest reverts to the status quo ante , i.e. like it was before CAL was set up. All the other CAL sites are open access without locks.

Having said that, I'm hoping NRW will come back to us soon with a pragmatic "permissive" system alternative to the present cancelled property deed system, but that can't involve CAL collecting money from visitor groups to fund NRW, nor can it involve getting paid-for bat surveys done when the generic bat situation underground is well understood (even by NRW) and it is not deemed to be a risk from experienced sport cavers / mine explorer activities who subscribe to the CAL list of approved visitors. NRW is already in possession of professional bat surveys - at least for the Rhiwbach mine that were provided by the commercial operators there. So it is unreasonable to ask CAL to provide bat surveys for sites where NRW is already in possession of bat surveys - and Rhiwbach falls into that category - yet that was what NRW was demanding from us a year ago when their ad hoc attempt to cancel the property deed verbally and without proper notice being given duly hit the legal buffers.

It seems sites like Hendre Ddu have not been visited much other than by Dave and myself and a few locals. So what's all the fuss about?

As to Bryneglwys, it's now a World Heritage Site with loads of NRW interpretation panels and wind-up audio recordings as you walk around the surface area. Are NRW seriously saying that you can't explore the underground parts of a Unesco World Heritage Site that is a mine, or one of a collection of disused mines? I dare say Unesco might have something to say about this if they knew.
 
ttxela2

ttxela2

Active member
Reall;y sad news this, I haven't made as much use of the access arrangements over the years as I would have liked to, hopefully some way forward can be found.
 
Ian Adams

Ian Adams

Active member
There was an immense amount of work and hassle that went into obtaining this agreement in the first place. I also haven’t forgotten the shenanigans we experienced meeting with NRW personnel who pretty much lied to our faces across a desk regarding bat issues.

It is very frustrating that they have cancelled the agreement and much more frustrating thinking about all the hard work required to now create another viable agreement.

I would say that I am saddened by all of this but I think the more appropriate verb would be “despair”.
 
royfellows

royfellows

Well-known member
There is a history of differing attitudes between what was then Forestry north Wales, read Gwydir Forest and central Wales. I am wondering if agreement can be reached in mid Wales in respect of Temple, Henfwlch and Talybont. I will this more thought.

I also need to counsel some caution re accessing the mines in the Llanrwst area. I spoke to NRW following the Hafna incident (see a separate thread) and prosecution was mentioned which NRW can indeed do. It also appears that the area is actively patrolled.
This incident has not helped matters, I wonder if there has been others, the situation was delicate all along.
 
Dave Tyson

Dave Tyson

Member
royfellows said:
There is a history of differing attitudes between what was then Forestry north Wales, read Gwydir Forest and central Wales. I am wondering if agreement can be reached in mid Wales in respect of Temple, Henfwlch and Talybont. I will this more thought.

I also need to counsel some caution re accessing the mines in the Llanrwst area. I spoke to NRW following the Hafna incident (see a separate thread) and prosecution was mentioned which NRW can indeed do. It also appears that the area is actively patrolled.
This incident has not helped matters, I wonder if there has been others, the situation was delicate all along.
Click to expand...
The Hafna incident was related to overnight parking, not access. I doubt if the area sees regular patrols, NRW probably drive around the car parks before dusk to check if any vehicles are left. Since the area has some 'interesting' mountain bike trails, if someone came off on one of the steep downhill sections then they might be injured and not make it back to their vehicle.

NRW seems to have split itself into separate regions and as you point out the central wales region might be more amenable, however that would mean CAL would have negotiate two or three contracts and my experience of filling just one of the on-line applications was not good to say the least.

Dave
 
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Stuart France

Active member
There are no lawful restrictions on the use of government forestry land for leisure/sport because of the time of day you happen to access it. Mountain biking at 3am, absolutely fine; you want a starlit walk, fine again; absolutely nothing NRW can do about that sort of thing in forestry. If you're underground then they can't see you, just the same as when you're on your mountain bike or star-gazing, although going into a mine (unless it has a sign inviting you to enter it) is against the Forestry Byelaws and the 11th commandment would then apply.

There isn't a right to park your car in forestry, unless it is Common Land and you happen to park within 15 yards of the highway. Then you can park legally, and again there is no limitation on the time of day nor the length of time that you can park. See Section 34 Road Traffic Act 1988.

If the forestry isn't Common Land then parking is in the gift of the landowner. In most forestry cases in Wales that means the Welsh Ministers (the Government) and not NRW who own very little land in their own name and presumably NRW cannot bring a legal action on behalf of a third party like WM despite how important NRW thinks it is. That's why the notice to end the CAL scheme was on Welsh Government letterhead and it was only forwarded to us attached to an NRW covering letter. If the landowner says you can park except ovenight then it means they are granting a right to park at all other times of day other than for the whole night, i.e. "overnight" clearly means from sunset to dawn or most of the night. Otherwise the ban would be for any use in any hours of darkness. But it's not, because the prohibition is invariably expressed as "overnight". That means they have to see you parked there when night started and again as night ended and prove that you did not leave and come back during the night so as to split the night, otherwise it's not really overnight. NRW doesn't have the means to obtain that level of proof. Nor does it have the manpower to go round locking barriers at night and opening them again in the morning every day.

NRW tried to end the CAL agreement one year ago verbally, with no notice at all, in a video meeting, and that duly failed for legal reasons. This amply demonstrates the ignorance of the organisation at local officer level as well as the level of self-belief.

I really don't think NRW would be wise to take conflicting with its visitors too far. Anyone issued with proceedings should contest it through a good solicitor. If you admit something then the case is over before it's even started. If you contest a case, then the chances are it will never get to court because your opposite numbers get cold feet and just give up, or they lose it when the case is heard.
 
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Stuart France

Active member
Yes. There are ANPR cameras popping up at larger NRW (i.e. Welsh Government forestry) car parks, such as Coed y Brenin, Newborough and most recently Moel Famau. Charges are typically £5 at the minor sites like MF and £7 or so per day at honeypots like CB. I suppose added up across Wales this raises a few million quid a year for NRW's coffers which is a drop in ocean against what it costs the taxpayer to fund them.

The biggest cash cow is of course Newborough where there are miles of nice sandy beaches, an island you can walk to at low tide, and an attractive looking forest full of alien but nevertheless decorative pine trees from Scotland. It's nice for a potter on your bike, but being flat as a pancake it's hardly mountain biking territory.

Walkers, runners etc of course also pay the parking charges.
 
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David Roberts

David Roberts

New member
Sad news and thank you everybody at CAL for the work you've done over the years. It's been great to have a selection of sites with proper access to enjoy.

I only spotted this news because I was on your website to get in touch and report my visit to Hendre Ddu today. It was my first time there, despite being "local" (from the other side of Cader Idris). It's a lovely spot to visit on a sunny autumn day and have lunch by its reservoir before exploring underground: a little gem of a place.

Thank you again and let's hope that the scheme can be replaced with something similar.
 
S

Stuart France

Active member
Just to remind everyone, CAL’s mine access agreement has ended today. The person signing the termination letter giving the required written notice six weeks ago was Ceri Witchard, Deputy Director Landscapes, Nature and Forestry of the Welsh Government.

NRW has been driving this change. The NRW letter attached to the above notice, signed by Lindsey Bowles, Senior Specialist Solicitor, states “the intention is to move Cave Access Ltd onto NRW’s permissions system. Our permissions team will be in touch regarding the requirements for you to obtain a licence to continue your use of the caves [sic], to bring your use of the caves into line with our permissions process through which we authorise all other third party activities on NRW land or land managed by NRW on behalf of the Welsh Ministers.”

Nobody has yet been in touch with us. The devil, as ever, will be in the detail of what the “requirements” might entail, and how far these are removed from the way “other third parties are managed”. The general public (like walkers, runners, cyclists, equestrians) going on foot have a legal right to blanket access to Welsh Government forestry for informal recreation. NRW cannot overturn any of that with a permissions system. So it leaves me wondering who are these “other third parties” that NRW "manages"? Commercial operations like Go Below? Motor sports events? We simply don’t know with whom and in what way amateur caving and mine exploration is being equated, and possibly we never will.
 
Pitlamp

Pitlamp

Well-known member
As a general principle, the concept of "needing" a licence to go caving is a very worrying development, as it could have repurcussions elsewhere which we'd not want as a caving community. It would set a precedent which may go on to bite hard.

But thanks for keeping us all well informed about this problem - I certainly don't wish to interfere from up here in the Dales.
 
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