Observations on the CNCC AGM

[bograt]

But as Matt says, he has only one vote on the Committee. 

Actually, Matt didn't say this, because of course he doesn't have a vote on the committee. 
Only the representatives of the elected committee member clubs have a vote (one vote per club). Matt is  a member of York Caving club, which is a full member of CNCC, but York is not on the Committee, so Matt doesn't have a vote on the Committee.

Er--- this doesn't make sense, if Matt is the representative of YCC, and has been elected onto the committee, then York is on the committee???

 

[kay]

But as Matt says, he has only one vote on the Committee. 

Actually, Matt didn't say this, because of course he doesn't have a vote on the committee. 
Only the representatives of the elected committee member clubs have a vote (one vote per club). Matt is  a member of York Caving club, which is a full member of CNCC, but York is not on the Committee, so Matt doesn't have a vote on the Committee.

Er--- this doesn't make sense, if Matt is the representative of YCC, and has been elected onto the committee, then York is on the committee???

The Committee is made up of  representatives from 14 elected full member clubs. Each elected committee club has one vote.

There are also elected officers (eg Secretary), coopted officers (eg Minutes Sec) and meets secs (who deal with permits) who may be the elected club reps (in which case they vote according to their club's wishes) or may be non-voting. York is not an elected committee club, therefore Matt does not have a vote (nor, of course, does York). When Matt attends CNCC meetings, he is working for CNCC, not representing York CC.

Or, to put it another way, Matt (who happens to be a York member) is a non-voting member of the Committee, but York CC is not on the Committee.

 

[Badlad]

An overlapping reply but I'd written this already.

Far from me to be advising how the CNCC work, but since my interest was sparked I have learnt a lot about how they run - which is generally pretty badly, but here goes.

Matt was elected as secretary.  That is an officer post which does not in itself, have a vote.  YCC is not on the committee so even if Matt was the rep, which I don't think he is, then he doesn't have a vote.

The committee shall consist of fourteen members each of whom shall represent a different club - each member of the committee shall have one vote. 

There shall be a Chairman, Secretary, Treasurer, Conservation officer and Training officer who shall be members of different clubs so far as this is possible and will be subject to instruction from the committee.

Previously the committee was unknown, even to the secretary.  It didn't consist of the full fourteen members and the main officers also represented what has been termed mirco clubs (clubs with just a few members), perhaps in order to make up the numbers.  Now the only officer who also represents a club is the Conservation officer, although the training officer may have a few more micro clubs up his sleeve yet.

For an organisation which has struggled to make a quorum in the past it does now seem top heavy.  With a membership of probably only thirty active clubs, and many of them being mirco clubs, it does make the constitution look rather outdated and unhelpful for doing business.

Clearly top to toe reform is needed and it would be great if the CNCC could get on with it with the enthusiastic assistance of the new secretary.  Unfortunately all his energy is being wasted, channelled into sorting out the mess left by the last secretary in his efforts to 'get one over' on the Earby Potholing Club for daring to speak out, probably a loose / loose situation for all but the Earby.

 

[bograt]

So, as I read that response, it is the clubs that are elected to the committee? that implies that if a club elects to change its representative, the person on the committee changes?

 

[graham]

So, as I read that response, it is the clubs that are elected to the committee? that implies that if a club elects to change its representative, the person on the committee changes?

Sure, as the person isn't on the committee, the club is. Bograt, you are old enough to remember when the secretary of the NCA had no vote.

 

[bograt]

I am also old enough to remember the chaos that resulted from that, caused from lack of continuity, and the reforms that needed to be made, and were made nationally and in certain regions.

 

[Badlad]

It is the club that is elected.  Many clubs do stick with the same rep but the rep can change (and does) depending on who is available from the club.  One club rep for example has been a regular for several decades.  He has practically no other involvement with his club other than attending council meetings. 

In the past this doesn't seem to have been much of a problem as the CNCC has been dominated by just a few of the officers and club reps, I think a couple of them have been in office for around 25 years.

There are two opposing views on this.  One opinion is that this sterling commitment has kept the council going through some very lean times, another opinion is that the failure to step away and let the new blood come through is now the major problem.

 

[kay]

There are two opposing views on this.  One opinion is that this sterling commitment has kept the council going through some very lean times, another opinion is that the failure to step away and let the new blood come through is now the major problem.

They're not necessarily opposing views though, are they? It's quite possible to see the advantages of both approaches. There is a benefit to having people in post for a long time who've managed to build up a relationship of trust with the landowners, for example. But the downside is, since most people take the course of action that they think is best, having the same person in post means it's less likely that you try out different ways of doing things.

There again, during my time as minutes secretary, I must say I wasn't aware of a mass of "new blood" that was being prevented from coming through 

 

[bograt]

Seems to me that a big problem is communication, and this comes down to the club rep's.
The job is to carry the club's position to the regional body, and report the regional bodies position back to the club, not an easy task.
  The club should be able to ask their rep why a certain policy was pursued at regional level, similarly, the regional body should be confident that the rep carries the attitude and confidence of their club.
I speak from experience when I say I understand the difficulties of being a club rep, it took many years to persuade "Mr. P.B." to realise that DCA was not a big monster bent upon absolute control, now TSG is a very valued participant in the running of DCA.
I would ask the clubs to look seriously at their selection of regional rep and decide accordingly, this of course depends upon the constitution of the regional body and adherence by them to that constitution, you can be the best rep in the world but if you are strangled at source you are bound to get disheartened.

 

[Badlad]

There again, during my time as minutes secretary, I must say I wasn't aware of a mass of "new blood" that was being prevented from coming through 

Just look around at every meeting you attended.  Amongst that old guard could you honestly see the sort of conditions which would encourage the attendance of 'new blood' yet alone their further participation.  Bograt makes a good point, club reps need to encourage club members to attend, and the meetings need to make themselves more appealing.  Perhaps clubs should take a lead and send some younger cavers along as reps and give Matt some support. 

With the graveyards full of indispensable people, do we wait until the old guard die before we get some new blood?

 

[cavermark]

So committee members only get a vote if they happen to be in a full member club?

If a committee member was in a full member club but was a different person to the club rep. would that club get 2 votes?
Is the number of committee posts (14 if I'm understanding this correctly?) based on anything in particular?

Confused...

 

[graham]

So committee members only get a vote if they happen to be in a full member club?

If a committee member was in a full member club but was a different person to the club rep. would that club get 2 votes?
Is the number of committee posts (14 if I'm understanding this correctly?) based on anything in particular?

Confused...

No, a committee member is a full member club, not an individual. Not all full member clubs are committee members.

No, see previous answer. Bear in mind that officers are servants of the committee but not members of it. They can also be there as representatives of committee member clubs but that is ot a pre-requisite.

No idea.

 

[jasonbirder]

It beggars belief that people could have come up with such a complex and counter-intuitive system
It's repeatedly explained and re-explained here...but it's still a minefield to understand how it functions...

 

[cavermark]

Sorry I think I was confusing committee posts such as Secretary, Treasurer, with committee members..

 

[Hammy]

I think that this whole thread is detrimental to the pastime of caving.

What on earth would a newcomer to this wonderful pastime make of all this ridiculous politicking?

Please can somebody in authority (British Caving Association?) show their mettle and take a stance and stop the ridiculousness.

Caving is an enjoyable recreational pastime - please can we keep it that way.

 

[kay]

It beggars belief that people could have come up with such a complex and counter-intuitive system
It's repeatedly explained and re-explained here...but it's still a minefield to understand how it functions...

It evolved, it wasn't designed that way. The original concept was that 14 clubs were elected on to the committee, and from the reps of these 14 clubs there were elected 5 officers, and the club reps also dealt with permits. Given that there are about 5 "meets secs" dealing with permits, that's a heck of a lot of work for a committee of 14...

So they had the idea of co-opting non-voting people on to the committee. For example, an enthusiastic young caver might be interested in taking on one of the jobs and using it to enhance his cv. It was a way of opening the pool beyond the members of the 14 elected clubs.

And to answer cavermark - each of the 14 elected clubs gets only one vote. So you might have a club which sends along its representative,  another member of the club who is the treasurer, another who is a meets sec, and two more as observers ... but only the representative would be able to vote.

 

[Hammy]

Kay what has this got to do with going caving?

 

[kay]

Just look around at every meeting you attended.  Amongst that old guard could you honestly see the sort of conditions which would encourage the attendance of 'new blood' yet alone their further participation. 

I joined as Minutes Sec only about 3 years ago, and I have to say I was welcomed. I didn't sense anything that would have discouraged me from further participation.

Kay what has this got to do with going caving?

Quite a lot. It's because of the continuing work of the CNCC that you are able to cave on particular fells, that caves get bolted, etc. So it's quite reasonable for cavers to want to know how the CNCC committee is made up and so on. You don't have to read it!

 

[Pringletours]

Being a new comer to caving  I'm wondering about the relevance of cncc and the paradoxical situation of potential suspending the earby from  the permit system  if they go caving without permits allegedly. Has anyone else caved without a permit?


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[cavermark]

I think that this whole thread is detrimental to the pastime of caving.

What on earth would a newcomer to this wonderful pastime make of all this ridiculous politicking?

Please can somebody in authority (British Caving Association?) show their mettle and take a stance and stop the ridiculousness.

Caving is an enjoyable recreational pastime - please can we keep it that way.

Nowt wrong with healthy debate online in my view.

I imagine a newcomer would look at the first few posts (if they were avidly reading everything on the forum) and move onto reading something else more relevent to them - no harm done.

Every sport has some kind of politics or controversial debate - climbers get really passionate about some stuff!