Pc non-pc cave names

[Speleofish]

Kermit, I'm disappointed you're leaving. I may not agree with everything you say but the forum will be diminished by losing someone with a different (and younger) perspective.

 

[Brown]

I think one of the underrated benefits of free speech is that it allows you to see who the arseholes are.

There seems to be a pernicious whining coming from the illiberal right at people judging them for their views. Take Kate Forbes, she has the right to think and say that sex outside of marriage is a sin and that gay marriage should be revoked. When the majority of people turn round and say they think her ideas are abhorrent that's not censorship or being cancelled. It's consequences.

The idea that some ideas are above criticism seems to be coming from the reactionary right with their corrupted version of free speech.

The right to be offensive without granting others the right to respond. The expectation that you sow without reaping.

It's not the left that are seeking an infantile safe space where they are protected from criticism. It's not cancel culture it's consequence culture.

 

[cavetroll]

I also have to pinch myself that it was illegal to be gay in the military within my shortish lifetime. Illegal to teach children that it’s okay to be gay. Illegal to marry the person you love if that person happens to have the same society-imposed gender as you. Society moves on thankfully, but the old privileged groups who never saw the problem have the hardest time adjusting.

The discussion here is really just disappointing. I really didn’t think that caving culture was this bad. If the young leave then these groups are left in a smaller echo chamber where they can fool themselves into thinking their views are mainstream. Keep making noise.

If the worst they’ve got is shouting “snowflake” and claiming to “lose respect” for us then I think we’re doing alright really - I won’t lose sleep.

If people want to know why a lot of caving clubs struggle for young members, they might want to look at this thread and think if their fear of change is worth clubs dying out over.

 

[pwhole]

A handful of people have had an argument in a single thread. That's hardly 'caving culture'. Maybe most people reading are not posting because they don't want to be involved in an endless argument that won't ever get satisfactorily resolved on here. Suggesting that young people's primary reason for not joining a caving club is because they judge that older members might be racist, transphobic and right-wing is one hell of a tautology. I'm none of those things, disagree with some of the points made by THT (especially 'shut down') and also have many younger friends in my caving club, which is thriving, and I'm very happy about that as they're good people. Our membership has a huge age-range, and its ability to manage that comfortably is one of its best features, I would say.

 

[tomferry]

I am not commenting because I think this thread doesn’t belong on here. I no my views on the matter are certainly not going to get accepted.

 

[royfellows]

I find it necessary to confess guilt in 'gross naivety'. in that although my original posting had absolutely nothing at all to do with Trans, this is the direction in that it has lead. I suppose that posting a statement to the effect that 'pigs cant fly' would have had similar. I have an old friend who is trans and speaking for myself tend to just take anybody as the way they are, after all, we are all 'something'.

I also find totally bizarre the way that this issue tends to dog the media, and here we are now its on UKC good as gold. With no disrespect intended to anyone, what is it, 1% of the population? Cant be much more. Anyway, if Mr Putin starts pressing buttons we can all identify as corpses, at least it would define priorities.

 

[Steve Clark]

A handful of people have had an argument in a single thread. That's hardly 'caving culture'. Maybe most people reading are not posting because they don't want to be involved in an endless argument that won't ever get satisfactorily resolved on here. Suggesting that young people's primary reason for not joining a caving club is because they judge that older members might be racist, transphobic and right-wing is one hell of a tautology. I'm none of those things, disagree with some of the points made by THT (especially 'shut down') and also have many younger friends in my caving club, which is thriving, and I'm very happy about that as they're good people. Our membership has a huge age-range, and its ability to manage that comfortably is one of its best features, I would say.

I'm not sure if I count as young, but I avoided joining a diving club in east Manchester primarily because it had a macho and racist sub-group of members whom I was fortunate enough to be introduced to on my first pub social. I never went again. On reflection, I should have told them why. I can't have been the only one who found it unacceptable.

We have the odd dinosaur in our mountaineering club. Fortunately, we seem to have a majority of folks with the backbone to call them out and challenge their opinions. We have updated our club rules to include guidance provided by the BMC in 2019 (see below). Not sure if this kind of thing exists in the world of caving admin, but it's hard to argue with any of it.

"
3.6 The Club respects the rights, dignity and worth of every person and will treat all Members equally within the context of Club activities and mountaineering activities, regardless of age, ability, gender, race, ethnicity, religious belief, sexuality or social/economic status.

3.7 The Club is committed to all Members having the right to enjoy mountaineering in an environment free from threat of intimidation, harassment and abuse.

3.8 All Members have a responsibility to oppose discriminatory behaviour and promote equality of opportunity.

3.9 The Club will deal with any incidence of discriminatory behaviour seriously, according to club disciplinary procedures.
"

Without going into any details, we have already used these to resolve an issue when an older member's behaviour that was called out by a new member. It worked and they both remain active members.

 

[Badlad]

I am locking the thread, everyone has had a say, and people have had enough. Folk seem to have departed from the caving element of the OP from the start. I had thought of locking it before but although I have not read every post I hadn't seen it turning nasty. There are two far opposing views for sure, mostly centred on age I expect. Whilst some can't believe people have one view, others can't believe people hold the opposite view either. In essence it reflects society's views as well as cavers. Everyone may well be shocked by finding out their caving mate might hold views so contrary to theirs. Mostly you don't get onto those subjects so it doesn't come up, but clearly views are held from both ends of the spectrum. If anyone is leaving the forum because of this particular discussion I hope they would be leaving Tiktok, facebook and most other forms of social media because the extremes of views are shown far more on there and those views are fueled by clever algorithms there to re-enforce whatever your view is. At least on Ukcaving you can see both sides, moderators have found it very difficult, but we are now locking the thread. Apologies if anyone has been upset by the posts and we haven't acted soon enough.​