Petzl Freino breaking krab clipping into hand jammer attachment point when transferring from ascenders to descender. Anyone had this before?

[Alice]

When rigging an entrance pitch, I was transferring from my ascenders back to my descender, after adjusting some rigging. Descender was already threaded and locked off under ascenders, the descender used was a Petzl Stop attached with a Petzl Freino carabiner (type shown below).

When standing up on the leg loop to remove the chest jammer, the breaking side of the Freino krab clipped into an open attachment hole on the hand jammer (reconstruction of clipping shown below, where the Freino breaking clip clipped through the empty bottom hole of the hand jammer).

This became very awkward to unclip, due to the rope being also through the breaking krab, behind where the hand jammer had clipped in, and also both ascenders still being attached. This somehow caused tension between the three (both ascenders and decender) and took a lot of effort to remove from the clip. I have used this combined Freino breaking krab on many trips and have made that manoeuvre many times, and it has never clipped into the Freino in this way before.

Has anyone had this happen before?

 

[Fulk]

Given the size of the pointy bit on the Freino relative to the hole into which it insinuated itself I’d say you were very unlucky that that happened – and I can imagine it must have been a struggle to sort it out. My hunch is that it must be rare occurrence . . . still, as it happened once, it could happen again, I suppose.

What is the point of the little hole?

 

[Loki]

Given the size of the pointy bit on the Freino relative to the hole into which it insinuated itself I’d say you were very unlucky that that happened – and I can imagine it must have been a struggle to sort it out. My hunch is that it must be rare occurrence . . . still, as it happened once, it could happen again, I suppose.

What is the point of the little hole?

A hang over from the pompe I think. https://www.verticalmuseum.com/VerticalDevicesPage/Ascender/HECStampedPages/HEC0047.php
Unlucky to clip it though. Although highly amusing for spectators I imagine.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

I did have the old style Petzl handled jammer with the hole, although at that time I didn't own a Freino (so never had the problem). But I did find the bottom of the handle repeatedly bashing the kroll or the central maillon, with the length of foot loop I liked. So I can see if you have the same lengths there'd be a risk of it hooking a Freino, just due to the weight of numbers of many many collisions, maybe inevitable

The solution for me was to use a non handled ascender and grip at the rope of the ascender/rope, which seemed way better for me so I never went back to handles.

Alternatively make your foot loop a little bit longer, so it never quite gets as far down as the Freino when you're standing up. But my vote is strongly for using a Basic (non handled) and giving/selling the handled one to someone else.

The hole is a good feature as you can (from memory?) put a 5mm maillon through it to permanently attach the footloop and leave the main hole free

 

[Fulk]

The solution for me was to use a non handled ascender and grip at the rope of the ascender/rope, which seemed way better for me so I never went back to handles.

Agree. I've never got on with the handled jammers and I think the non-handled ones are better.

 

[mikem]

I thought that petzl recommended having the braking side away from you, whereas looks like you have it towards you?

 

[Pete K]

Nope, the breaking spur of the Freino towards user is what the technical notice shows.

https://www.petzl.com/sfc/servlet.shepherd/version/download/068Tx00000GXJ5tIAH

I've seen a similar issue a couple of times, but not exactly this before. I agree that it is probably just really bad luck and some minor adjustments to the length of your footloop might limit the chance of this happening again.

 

[mikem]

In the download it's a freino Z which has the spur at opposite (narrow) end of krab to original freino (shown in first post)

https://m.petzl.com/INT/en/Professional/Connectors/FREINO-Z

 

[wellyjen]

Petzl don't list the Stop as being compatible with the Freino Z.

 

[andrewmcleod]

Petzl don't list the Stop as being compatible with the Freino Z.

You can only use the Freino Z with the 'new' (handled) Stop as the attachment hole is bigger so that you can rotate the krab through it. Same logic that the pre-2019 Rigs/I'Ds etc. can't be used with the Freino Z (which is why they still sell the Freino I presume).
There are _extensive_ Petzl diagrams about how to use the Freino Z with the new Stop for lock-offs etc. in all sorts of weird and wonderful ways (in the document Pete K linked above). Reading the instructions, it makes it seem like the Freino Z is actually their _preferred_ braking carabiner.

 

[Alice]

Thank you all for the insight and advice!

I may have a go at using a Basic and see how I get on with that, I see how the extra distance created will definitely reduce the chances for the Freino to clip in.

I'm also very tempted to move away from using a Freino altogether, it's never been my favourite and this incident has put me off more. Especially with the current consensus that it seems mainly to be bad luck (with some minor human tweaks to reduce likelihood)

Cheers again for input, I had put this to my club and we had wanted some more opinions on how we can all avoid this happening again if using a similar equipment setup (so thank you for ideas on playing around with the leg loop length a bit more!).

 

[Chappo]

Look carefully and you'll see it's not a Freino Z, but its predecessor, the one for use with the pre-2019 Stop. That said, both 'old' and 'new' Freino designs have the friction spike in pretty much in the same place and orientation on a user, so the 'mis-fortune' of hooking it onto the tiny hole in the handled jammer, might/could have happened with either vintage.

You can only use the Freino Z with the 'new' (handled) Stop as the attachment hole is bigger so that you can rotate the krab through it. Same logic that the pre-2019 Rigs/I'Ds etc. can't be used with the Freino Z (which is why they still sell the Freino I presume).
There are _extensive_ Petzl diagrams about how to use the Freino Z with the new Stop for lock-offs etc. in all sorts of weird and wonderful ways (in the document Pete K linked above). Reading the instructions, it makes it seem like the Freino Z is actually their _preferred_ braking carabiner.