Petzl Harness buckle issue query

[moorfurlong]

HI

Does anyone know if the fault ( the leg loops coming undone ) whilst in use ( I think this was with the Petzl Superavanti and Aven ? ) has now been addressed.

I.E has the webbing been changed / design altered to stop this. I can see new harnesses are still being sold with the PVC bucket adapter. However is this just a precautionary part of the later two harnesses, or is the webbing / design still not been sorted.

 

[wellyjen]

HI

Does anyone know if the fault ( the leg loops coming undone ) whilst in use ( I think this was with the Petzl Superavanti and Aven ? ) has now been addressed.

I.E has the webbing been changed / design altered to stop this. I can see new harnesses are still being sold with the PVC bucket adapter. However is this just a precautionary part of the later two harnesses, or is the webbing / design still not been sorted.

I don't know. Must admit, I lost confidence in Petzl after this debacle, when they didn't do a proper recall and fix. I'd been using Avantis since the 1980s, when they were made from 25mm tape. After my last Avanti with the old style tape wore out, I bought an MTDE Club.

 

[LadyMud]

I lost confidence in Petzl after this debacle

Me too! I now try to avoid Petzl if possible.

 

[Maisie Syntax]

Petzl 'sorted out' this slippage problem just over a year ago. The information as to how to get it fixed was posted on this forum by Inglesport on 31st Jan '24. If you use search for either Inglesport or Superavanti and look around that date, I'm sure it will be easy to find. The update was on the Petzl website - somewhere...... Not sure how to post direct link to either page at the moment.

 

[Maisie Syntax]

https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?threads/petzl-aven-superavanti-buckle-covers.31513/

This should get the page - possibly

 

[moorfurlong]

Petzl 'sorted out' this slippage problem just over a year ago. The information as to how to get it fixed was posted on this forum by Inglesport on 31st Jan '24. If you use search for either Inglesport or Superavanti and look around that date, I'm sure it will be easy to find. The update was on the Petzl website - somewhere...... Not sure how to post direct link to either page at the moment.

Many thanks for the reply. I was aware of the retro fit covers, I was wondering if these were not required anymore,. Seems this is not the case and they are required

 

[wellyjen]

The buckle covers isn't a "sorted out" to me. It is a cludge to keep selling a poor design, rather than fixing the actual problem. Particularly in caving, where the covers seem to not last long in use, from those I know who have them. See this thread that appeared at the top of the Similar Threads list below the edit box while writing this. Something that should not be acceptable in a safety critical item.

 

[Maisie Syntax]

The buckle covers isn't a "sorted out" to me. It is a cludge to keep selling a poor design, rather than fixing the actual problem. Particularly in caving, where the covers seem to not last long in use, from those I know who have them. See this thread that appeared at the top of the Similar Threads list below the edit box while writing this. Something that should not be acceptable in a safety critical item.

It's certainly a 'quick fix bodge' rather than a rectification of a dangerous problem - hence my use of inverted commas for the phrase 'sorted out'. Before the buckle covers were available, I had a leg loop on the superavanti come completely undone near the top of a 30m pitch, which was somewhat alarming... ....to say the least. I reported this to Petzl, who didn't seem in the least interested.
By this point, I had already ceased using the harness, and stored it away until a product recall/replacement was issued. Whilst I received the 'upgrade' of the buckle covers, which I find do stop the buckles slipping, I have ceased to purchase any other Petzl gear.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

It was never recognised as a problem/fault/danger. The little covers were issued at the time as an optional accessory.

I bought one and just didn't like it for reasons in addition to buckles so never used in anger (only up and down a rope hung from a tree twice) but sold it on as new with cardboard tags still attached, I supplied the "optional accessory" buckle covers with it.

The purchaser seemed happy with it so maybe the "certain death" of the buckles is a matter of opinion. Maybe they get better after some use and the webbing gets fluffier?

At brand new.. I don't think the webbing and buckles are quite right combination and the covers are a bodge leaving me cautious of Petzl harnesses in future. Just my opinion..

The big question, I think as yet unanswered is if Petzl changed their webbing since the complaints or if it is still slidy buckles?

 

[langcliffe]

The solution to the problem was a cludge, but by the time I lost my buckle covers the problem had disappeared. As I do keep my harnesses clean, I suspect that the problem resulted from a finish on the webbing, rather than from the webbing itself. I am reasonably happy with the harness now, although I do double-check the leg loops before negotiating a pitch.

I agree with @wellyjen that the original Avantis were the best - compact and very comfortable. I still use mine on some pull-throughs, like Top Sink to near Ease Gill. They have progressively gone downhill since then.

 

[Babyhagrid]

The current superavanti is still very comfortable and small. And I'm yet to find anything as comfortable and cheap and compact. A bit of grit and mud in the buckles definitely helps stop it slipping, as well as the new guards.

 

[Maisie Syntax]

It was never recognised as a problem/fault/danger. The little covers were issued at the time as an optional accessory.

I bought one and just didn't like it for reasons in addition to buckles so never used in anger (only up and down a rope hung from a tree twice) but sold it on as new with cardboard tags still attached, I supplied the "optional accessory" buckle covers with it.

The purchaser seemed happy with it so maybe the "certain death" of the buckles is a matter of opinion. Maybe they get better after some use and the webbing gets fluffier?

At brand new.. I don't think the webbing and buckles are quite right combination and the covers are a bodge leaving me cautious of Petzl harnesses in future. Just my opinion..

The big question, I think as yet unanswered is if Petzl changed their webbing since the complaints or if it is still slidy buckles?

The buckle covers were not around at the time of the release of the orange superavanti harness coming on the market - or at least the UK market, which was early Feb 2022 - quite possibly even before that.
The issue of slipping leg loops on the orange superavanti also started appearing on this forum in Feb 2022
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?threads/new-avanti-leg-loops-slipping.29209/

They were not mentioned, or offered as an option, even when I contacted Petzl to inform them of the constantly slipping leg loops, the fact that one leg loop had become completely unthreaded during a single 30m vertical ascent, and that I had spoken with other users of the new superavanti harness who were also having the same issues and had also been in correspondence with Petzl about the danger.
After many months of back and forth correspondence with Petzl, they eventually let me know that they were in the process of manufacturing something which would resolve the problem, although plastic buckle guards were not mentioned. Around a month or so later, they let me know that the item to fix the problem would soon be in stock (estimate early February 2024).

January 31st 2024, Inglesport posted on this forum that they now had a limited supply of the new buckle covers.
So, the solution to the slipping leg loops was first available some two years after the harness had been on the market, and around that the same time that complaints about slipping lag loops had been reported to Petzl, as well as being reported on this forum.

I gather that the problem of the slipping leg loops etc. does appear to resolve itself eventually, presumably due to the 'slippy' material losing its shine, along with generally getting quite dirty on a regular basis and scuffing up the surface of the webbing.
So, would a suitable review of the harness (without the optional accessory of the covers) be something like - "It eventually develops into quite a decent harness, as long as you don't fall out of it for the first twenty trips or so" ?

 

[Samouse1]

This is not defending Petzls actions, but given the cost of putting a harness through all the tests etc, I can understand the desire to find a cheaper solution, especially given that we cavers are (unfortunately) now a small part of their market. Given the relative rarity (although not minimising the severity) of the issue, I can believe they simply didn't have it occur in their testing procedure, both before and after it was on the market. They accepted that there is an issue and produced a fix. It wasn't a recall admittedly, but they now supply new harnesses with the fix and made it freely available. I think this is the nature of the beast with capitalism when the bottom line is such a big thing (not how it should be I agree). I for one am just glad that no one had to die for them to address the issue.

I'll happily eat my words if the next iteration has the same problem

 

[Loki]

From looking at brand new ones myself the issue seems to be the memory in the webbing. It wants to be straight unlike other webbings that stay bent when You fold them. If you have a new one try threading the buckles up without the fixers then shake the harness and watch the web unthread itself from the double back. If it does this while wearing it, it will then creep undone through the first part of the buckle. As said a used webbing will behave differently.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

Hmmm.. I heard a story from a friend not suitable for public posting, relating to company culture. That's an in-person pub conversation though and unrelated to this thread.

Another comment is about a very different product called the Petzl ZigZag, which is a mechanical prussic. Arborist use it to ascend, and grabbing it and pulling like a french prussic/autoblock they can abseil down. Anyway the design went through all the certification type tests (i.e. the expensive bit) but it didn't get the diverse range of testing from people outside the company who use stuff in the real world and beat stuff up. So it got released to the public. Unfortunately if the krab clipping the top was twisted, which is something that will conceivably happen in real life use not some elaborate and artificial set of circumstances, the zigzag would snap at bodyweight loads and drop the user. Petzl had to issue an immediate stop using and recall all devices. Someone was hurt but luckily nobody was killed. The design was updated. Google it all if you wish.
The issue is that it was when the product was used outside of the lab testing it was loaded differently in some circumstances. So all lab tests could pass and get certification but a fatally dangerous product could be released.
Hypothetical worst case would be a chief designer who had an unapproachable and aloof attitude that made him averse to input from others (including colleagues) because he was the great designer and they are not, then there'd be a toxic culture that didn't value sending stuff out and getting lots of people to beat it up and listening to the feedback from usage. That scenario never became an issue at any company making PPE. But if anyone did have any specific stories to the contrary it'd be wise for them to keep them as pub conversations.

 

[mikem]

The leg loops are constantly moving during use, so are far more of a problem, but less safety critical, than the waist buckle.

 

[Loki]

Don’t get me started on how difficult it is to get objective,constructive feedback on new/development products. It’s very satisfying when someone doesn’t want to give it back though, or it’s completely battered but still functional and the only complaint is the gear loop broke.

 

[andrewmcleod]

Petzl do give gear out to their 'product testers' to be used in real-life situations; I know at least one person who has trialed gear in this fashion for them.

I believe the reason the harnesses have changed from nylon to polyester webbing is to make them more 'durable' in some fashion - I can't remember if that's more durable against abrasion or just easier to adjust as the harness ages (or something like that).

 

[moorfurlong]

Many thanks for all your replies