Porth yr Ogof

[bagpuss]

Hi,
We are in South Wales between 12-18th October and looking for people/person that might be interested in visiting Porth Yr Ogof with us. We are members of a caving club/BCA. I've walked/swum the area many times and always looked longingly at the entrance, would love to have the chance to visit.. Food/drink post cave in return!

 

[Babyhagrid]

porth yr ogof is pretty simple and small and you definitely could visit it by yourselves. as long as the weather is settled and dry and you steer clear of the resurgence you can have a very pleasant hour of exploring using a survey

 

[ChrisJC]

Just to emphasise, the resurgence is usually where people die. It is extremely deep there with submerged obstacles. Yet inviting as daylight can be seen a very easily swimmable distance away.

Chris.

 

[bagpuss]

porth yr ogof is pretty simple and small and you definitely could visit it by yourselves. as long as the weather is settled and dry and you steer clear of the resurgence you can have a very pleasant hour of exploring using a survey

Thanks, confident it would be simple enough and we are able to make a judgement on weather etc, it's more from a safety point of view that it feels better to cave with more than just two of us.

 

[hyweldavies]

Thanks, confident it would be simple enough and we are able to make a judgement on weather etc, it's more from a safety point of view that it feels better to cave with more than just two of us.

Assuming you are not doing the swim-through it is pretty safe to explore the rest of it. I did most of it with my non-caver Dad when I was about 12 with a bike lamp and wooly hat.

Swim through is more serious and has caught out a few people. I'd not try that without a rubber ring and wetsuit.

 

[bagpuss]

Assuming you are not doing the swim-through it is pretty safe to explore the rest of it. I did most of it with my non-caver Dad when I was about 12 with a bike lamp and wooly hat.

Swim through is more serious and has caught out a few people. I'd not try that without a rubber ring and wetsuit.

Would still prefer to do it with others if anyone happens to be free and fancies it.

 

[Stuart France]

PM me. I could join you on either 12 or 13th Oct.

The safety related comments above need your attention. Wear a wetsuit if swimming through the long deep sections (and there are two).

I took some climbing friends and their children through the resurgence on their holiday in S.Wales at their request, all suitably attired. All of them were also instructed to have several empty plastic milk bottles attached to their waist belts for flotation.

The mortal danger at PYO seems to be not from submerged obstacles or any current but from the cold water itself. Chilled blood going to the brain causes complete loss of coordination. There were no hidden obstacles at the time of the 1992 resurgence fatality as I used diving gear the next day and checked it out carefully. The max depth is about 5m and the 'pitched' roof above you is sloping so there are no ledges or any other means to get out of the water except to swim to one end or the other. A policeman actually asked me what happens here when someone can't swim. Some of the inquests have touched on swimming ability, and some of the victims were competent outdoors instructors. A better question to have asked me would have been what happens if someone who can swim finds they can't swim.

 

[paul]

The mortal danger at PYO seems to be not from submerged obstacles or any current but from the cold water itself. Chilled blood going to the brain causes complete loss of coordination.

This reminds me of the story an old caving friend told me about a trip through Dowbergill Passage on a Providence Pot to Dow Cave trip some years ago. There were three in the party and one fell into the cold water below at some point and struggled to climb back out on what appeared to be a straight-forward climb. The other two were laughing over this, and a second caver dropped down to help and now he also had problems in the cold water. The third joined them and they realised this was actually a serious problem, as due to the effects of the cold water, they really struggled to climb back up but luckily made it safely in the end.

 

[tim.rose2]

I've never understood the desire to go through the resurgence...
Wade down the river until waist deep (at which point you can see the resurgence ahead). If I remember correctly there's a sign saying don't go any further. Exit the cave via the entrance to your left (daylight obvious if I remember correctly). Follow the path outside the cave, visit the outside of the resurgence and re-enter the cave through one of the other nearby entrances. This is all perfectly safe and at most you miss out on 100 m of wading / swimming in water / pointlessly getting bloody cold.
The other place to be wary is White Horse Pool - as per posts above, jumping in for a swim and getting cold shock has the potential to be dangerous. A lot of years ago a friend of mine thought it would be fun to jump in whilst snow melt was running through the cave (without wearing appropriate clothing for doing so). Once the rest of us had finishing pissing ourselves laughing we eventually helped him out of the water. The muddy bank which is an obvious jumping in point is suddenly 'very slippery' when you're wet and cold. We'd basically finished our trip and 1 of 4 decided to take the swimming route back to the main entrance whilst the other 3 thought the dry option would be better. The net result was 4 took the dry option, but 1 was a bit 'drippy'.

Great cave to bugger about and have fun providing you avoid the resurgence.

Tim

 

[bagpuss]

This reminds me of the story an old caving friend told me about a trip through Dowbergill Passage on a Providence Pot to Dow Cave trip some years ago. There were three in the party and one fell into the cold water below at some point and struggled to climb back out on what appeared to be a straight-forward climb. The other two were laughing over this, and a second caver dropped down to help and now he also had problems in the cold water. The third joined them and they realised this was actually a serious problem, as due to the effects of the cold water, they really struggled to climb back up but luckily made it safely in the end.

I had trouble scrambling up Goredale Scar once, a straight forward scramble. It was a grey and breezy day, I had a swim in Janet's Foss en route and got very cold, didn't dry off very well due to a school trip of kids rocking up at the Foss. Once at the Scar the wind was tunneling down creating quite a bit of windchill, then had to wait for others ahead of us to go up first. Not easy scrambling with full body shakes!

 

[bagpuss]

I've never understood the desire to go through the resurgence...
Wade down the river until waist deep (at which point you can see the resurgence ahead). If I remember correctly there's a sign saying don't go any further. Exit the cave via the entrance to your left (daylight obvious if I remember correctly). Follow the path outside the cave, visit the outside of the resurgence and re-enter the cave through one of the other nearby entrances. This is all perfectly safe and at most you miss out on 100 m of wading / swimming in water / pointlessly getting bloody cold.
The other place to be wary is White Horse Pool - as per posts above, jumping in for a swim and getting cold shock has the potential to be dangerous. A lot of years ago a friend of mine thought it would be fun to jump in whilst snow melt was running through the cave (without wearing appropriate clothing for doing so). Once the rest of us had finishing pissing ourselves laughing we eventually helped him out of the water. The muddy bank which is an obvious jumping in point is suddenly 'very slippery' when you're wet and cold. We'd basically finished our trip and 1 of 4 decided to take the swimming route back to the main entrance whilst the other 3 thought the dry option would be better. The net result was 4 took the dry option, but 1 was a bit 'drippy'.

Great cave to bugger about and have fun providing you avoid the resurgence.

Tim

Was intending on not including a swim in the resurgence, will have a survey and description with us. I always wear a wetsuit with thermal rash vest under it in wet caves, but don't enjoy swimming (if it can be avoided) in full caving kit!

 

[bagpuss]

PM me. I could join you on either 12 or 13th Oct.

Thanks Stuart, I have sent you an email.

 

[hyweldavies]

This reminds me of the story an old caving friend told me about a trip through Dowbergill Passage on a Providence Pot to Dow Cave trip some years ago. There were three in the party and one fell into the cold water below at some point and struggled to climb back out on what appeared to be a straight-forward climb. The other two were laughing over this, and a second caver dropped down to help and now he also had problems in the cold water. The third joined them and they realised this was actually a serious problem, as due to the effects of the cold water, they really struggled to climb back up but luckily made it safely in the end.

Another anecdote to add weight to such stories. We'd been walking along the Twrch valley on an idyllic and sunny spring day then decided to have a dip in one of the swimming holes along the river. Anyhow I stripped off and jumped in, and f-me it was cold. Give it a minute to acclimatise and it'll be OK, then started gasping for breath and realised I could be in a bit of trouble. Going through my mind was the newspaper report "middle aged man has heart attack trying to impress new girlfriend". Managed to clamber out but it took a while to calm down and the you lady in question, now my wife, recounted she was quite worried.

Anyhow, it is something to be legitimately concerned about, even on a warm day outdoors

 

[Cantclimbtom]

A best friend of a family friend, did something similar when on a countryside walk with just her 3 year old daughter - tragically she never climbed out again. These things can happen. Enter water calmly and carefully somewhere easy to get out unaided

Edit: nearly reconsidered and deleted this post, but leaving in case it prevents anything

 

[Stuart France]

Yes, cold water can become serious. I remember a trip in Little Neath, probably in the 80s, young and keen, when I went through the long low canal with my head kept above water sort of doggy-paddle style while my friend floated through it on his back. Both in wetsuits. At the far end he could not get himself vertical let alone walk onward for some while, and it took me a while to "get it"... cold to the neck.

I've seen it in the mountains too, not the doggy paddle wet stuff but people who go a bit crazy due to incipient hypothermia. Like a normally sensible bloke during a simple fell walk pretending to be a steam engine with all the sound effects, and someone else imagining there were mice running around them - on the top of Ben Nevis in good winter climbing conditions!

 

[Ian P]

A document from BCA regarding the topic. May be of some use.
(Never been to the cave so I have no idea how useful it is)

 

[JAA]

Flashbacks to being frankly terrified swimming the lake in white scar when I was a teenager……
It’s what’s always put me off visiting Too Long Gone in Penyghent. Or that’s my excuse anyway.

 

[bagpuss]

A best friend of a family friend, did something similar when on a countryside walk with just her 3 year old daughter - tragically she never climbed out again. These things can happen. Enter water calmly and carefully somewhere easy to get out unaided

Edit: nearly reconsidered and deleted this post, but leaving in case it prevents anything

Really sorry to read. I'm always very cautious when swimming outdoors, entering within my depth and swimming across rather than outwards.

 

[Tritim230]

Yes, cold swimming is dangerous. And I wouldn't voluntarily do it in a cave without being properly suited and equipped.
However, many people (like me) actually enjoy cold water swimming as a activity, swimming right throughout the winter (outdoors) in skins (just ordinary swim suit).
So, I wouldn't want this thread to post a totally negative light on the activity.
Cautions: don't just jump in, acclimatise and don't stay in too long and make sure you can get out easily. Don't swim alone and make sure your friends can rescue you or there is a safety boat. Different people have different tolerances to cold and there can be a massive difference each day depending on outside weather conditions for the same water temperature eg I can stay in twice as long when the sun is shining than if it is dull and windy.
Always have warm dry clothes available and a hot drink afterwards. You have a window of a few minutes before you start shaking uncontrollably. So get changed and warmed quick.
You can't do this is a cave so that is why badly equipped it can be quickly horribly wrong and possibly fatal.
Back to Porth y Ogof. As per my intro I would only ever attempt the swim in wetsuit with a buoyancy aid. Too many unknowns and no easy side exit.
I have done several free dives in a furry suit but that is different when you are moving quickly afterwards and it wasn't swimming. A big difference.

 

[JoshW]

One of my favourite things I did at hidden earth this year was head up to horseshoe falls for a cold water dip!

The advice above is great. Take it slow getting in. I find I have a bit of a wall to break through when getting in and I reach the golden zone of a calm head, but when I hit the second wall I need to get out, else I find it takes a worrying amount of time to warm back up again, and clambering over rocks etc to exit becomes difficult as my brain loses focus