Question about stop grip and slip.

[porgzilla]

I'm getting increasingly irritated by Stop (old one still but I've used new stop a lot too) especially handling thicker rope (10.5mm) when slightly fluffy, damp, stiff and dirty. Tried various combinations of controlling it with dead rope only, handle+dead combination, extra braking krabs and sometimes the best I can get it a fast succession of mini drops, I've learned to machine-gun the drops really fast and the rope smooths it out a bit to something analogous to smooth controlled descent, but not quite.

Worst I've ever had was a few years ago with new stop on a thick stiff rope and a 70m pitch in Derbyshire and I had to fight to feed rope to cause a 1/2 metre fall and repeat the process all the way down: faffing about and then falling, and the pitch below, although it had been as good as gold on the first pitch .

On a 10mm dynamic dry rope (e.g. descending from a giant tree) it will creep considerably and hands free, I'd descend at a medium pace.
Clean and dry semi static 10mm in good condition seem just right.

Stop is very sensitive to the ropes. Overly sensitive!

Yeah, I'm still a noob at this so it could be user error, but you sound seasoned enough
Maybe the stops aren't for us.

Did you imply that you got similar results with the newer stop? because on the training wall at least they felt a lot smoother.

 

[flashheart]

Personally I have always used the old Petzl Stop, with 10.5mm rope, I have only ever had a handful of slippages, the first time it happened was because of the amount of mud on the device, luckily it was a small 11m pitch, after that, one thing I always do since then, is have a trailing 7mm chord as a prussik.

So I'll abseil a foot or two and then bring it down while keeping the dead rope tensioned using a braking karabiner, yes it is a bit more effort, but it has stopped me from having slippages on older & muddier ropes.

I have used all kinds of descenders like the Petzl I.D., the Rack (only for massive abseils,) and the old Petzl Stop, in my observations I learned that what happens is the brake can get caught in oval shaped and HMS karabiners, so now when I use my stop I use an 8mm Mallion Rapide for my Petzl Stop, to connect to the D-Ring.

Since I started doing this I haven't had the brake get caught in a karabiner since, so my personal experience tells me it has a lot to do with the choice of the way you attach the Stop to your harness.

One thing I have experienced but only in OHA, because of the mud.
Sometimes there is that much mud that the brake doesn't work under these conditions and the rope self feeds itself through although somewhat feeding slowly through the stop, it does show a bigger issue at hand.

I do agree, the stop makes you feel safe even though there could be more danger present, but I still feel it would be safer than a simple, if it came to a scenario where you became unconscious mid rope.

Hi Space Doubt Caver, just wondering how you have your central maillon set up, i.e. the order of equipment? I can't imagine how your descender brake is getting stuck in the descender's karabiner, unless I've misunderstood? I would also expect an 8mm maillon to wear through your Stop a fair bit quicker than a karabiner, so that might be something to keep an eye on?

 

[georgenorth]

I hit a glazed section of rope on an old style Stop years ago and free fell several meters. It would have been very nasty if it had been near the floor or a ledge. The glazed rope problem seems to cause a feedback loop as people go faster and faster down the glazed section.

I’ve been using a Simple/ handy combo since with no issues.

 

[Space Doubt Caver]

Hi Space Doubt Caver, just wondering how you have your central maillon set up, i.e. the order of equipment? I can't imagine how your descender brake is getting stuck in the descender's karabiner, unless I've misunderstood? I would also expect an 8mm maillon to wear through your Stop a fair bit quicker than a karabiner, so that might be something to keep an eye on?

Of course, soon as i get home from work, i will make a quick video showing what happens and how it happens, i will also get a picture of how i have my D-Ring rigged

 

[andrewmcleod]

The instructions manuals for the Stop (at least the new one) explicitly forbid use of a maillon (and also semi-circular carabiners and snapgates; a D-shaped carabiner is suggested). I think there's some issue where a maillon can open the gate of the Stop or something? Also, your braking carabiner should be attached to your Stop's carabiner, not your D-ring (at least according to Petzl) to avoid the possibility of getting the end of the Stop caught in the braking carabiner and having no braking at all. Obviously if you have verified that a Stop cannot get caught in your braking carabiner (if, for instance, it's very small or if it's actually a Raumer Handy) then this isn't an issue.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

I hit a glazed section of rope on an old style Stop years ago and free fell several meters. It would have been very nasty if it had been near the floor or a ledge. The glazed rope problem seems to cause a feedback loop as people go faster and faster down the glazed section.

I’ve been using a Simple/ handy combo since with no issues.

Haha haaa I had a similar issue once many years ago working on a bridge. One rope "accidentally" had a metre or so if it covered in washing up liquid (or maybe it was swarfega, not sure...), that was a suprise! This was back in the day workplaces had a sense of humour.

 

[paul]

The instructions manuals for the Stop (at least the new one) explicitly forbid use of a maillon (and also semi-circular carabiners and snapgates; a D-shaped carabiner is suggested). I think there's some issue where a maillon can open the gate of the Stop or something? Also, your braking carabiner should be attached to your Stop's carabiner, not your D-ring (at least according to Petzl) to avoid the possibility of getting the end of the Stop caught in the braking carabiner and having no braking at all. Obviously if you have verified that a Stop cannot get caught in your braking carabiner (if, for instance, it's very small or if it's actually a Raumer Handy) then this isn't an issue.

The danger of the Stop becoming caught in the braking krab is largely if a rebelay beneath you fails while a caver is prusiking up below, their full weight would come onto the rope which is exiting your bobbin-type descender (Stop, Simple, Kong Banana, etc) at the top, pulling it downwards into the braking krab causing the braking action to decrease and presenting the risk of an uncontrolled descent. (See Alpine Caving Techniques, Georges Marbach and Bernard Tourte page 45).

 

[IanWalker]

The danger of the Stop becoming caught in the braking krab ...

This can also happen if you unweight the Stop at the pitchhead, allowing let the weight of the pitch rope to pull the head of the Stop over.

Conversely, with the braking krab on the Stop krab, it is feasible to unwittingly lodge a braking krab around the red handle (on older Stops)

Both good reasons for keeping a cowstail attached until after testing the operation of the Stop

 

[JAshley73]

... in my observations I learned that what happens is the brake can get caught in oval shaped and HMS karabiners, so now when I use my stop I use an 8mm Mallion Rapide for my Petzl Stop, to connect to the D-Ring.

Since I started doing this I haven't had the brake get caught in a karabiner since, so my personal experience tells me it has a lot to do with the choice of the way you attach the Stop to your harness.

Pretty sure that it's recommended to NOT use mallions on bobbins, as when unweighted, the bobbin can "roll-out" and the mallion can actually open the latch. See below.

'
Also demonstrated, is how the bobbin can get stuck in a braking-krab, if mounted to the D-ring. Thus, why it's advised to clip your braking-krab onto the connecting-krab, instead of the D-ring.

Screenshots taken from Derek Bristol's YouTube video.

 

[JAshley73]

How I have my Stop setup. I refuse to spend $50 on a Freino, to be worn-through so quickly. Using a DMM Perfecto auto-locker for connection, and a cheap spap-gate for the braking-krab. A bit of accessory cord keeps the braking-krab oriented correctly, for less fiddling about.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

.... you sound seasoned enough

Don't confuse enthusiasm with competence. I've used Stops since the mid 90s but I certainly don't claim to know what I'm doing

Did you imply that you got similar results with the newer stop? because on the training wall at least they felt a lot smoother.

Purely my personal opinion:
It's a mixed bag. On the right rope... new Stop is nicer. At first I preferred new Stop and didn't understand the grumbles. Then I used it on more ropes and found it was more fussy. New Stop is happier with thinner newer ropes. Used on fat old stiff things that've seen better days (describing myself?) new Stop is a liability

 

[Cantclimbtom]

JAshley, arguably expensive and unnecessary, but have you considered swapping both carabiners in your picture for a Freino Z?

Petzl Freino Z Braking Carabiner - Inglesport

Technical Equipment Retailers to the Sport and Professional markets for Caving, Climbing, Rope Access, Work at Height and Rescue since 1977

www.inglesport.com

(Freino is for old Stop and Freino Z is for new Stop and in that case it flips upside down, which is actually quite helpful)

 

[JAshley73]

JAshley, arguably expensive and unnecessary, but have you considered swapping both carabiners in your picture for a Freino Z?

Petzl Freino Z Braking Carabiner - Inglesport

Technical Equipment Retailers to the Sport and Professional markets for Caving, Climbing, Rope Access, Work at Height and Rescue since 1977

www.inglesport.com

(Freino is for old Stop and Freino Z is for new Stop and in that case it flips upside down, which is actually quite helpful)

Not really. I commented above in my post. While the Freino is handy, I won't spend $50 for something that the rope is going to wear-through so quickly.

If it were steel, 100% yes, I would...

 

[Steve Clark]

As a climber and generally fat/top heavy, I find the biggest advantage with the simple is that it allows a hand to be on the pitch rope above the descender. This is much more stable and allows a lot more control of body position if my feet are close to the wall. I use a breaking krab (in the descender krab, not the central D to avoid that problem with the top of the simple getting caught in the top bobbin which I understand killed a leading French caver), and I’m pretty disciplined with full locks.

It’s too awkward if I’m rigging so I use a rig for that.

 

[JAshley73]

While we're chatting Bobbins, may I poll the crowd...?

Does anyone have experience with the Climbing Technologies Acles DX bobbin? Eventually, I'll pick up one of these or a Petzl Simple. I like that the Aclese has the attachment hole for the braking-krab, which I would hope would lead to less fiddling.

 

[pwhole]

The Raumer Handy is (in my opinion) the finest braking krab around, and is made of stainless steel, and wears very slowly indeed. It has a 'sharp' end, which will stop anything, and a 'round' end if the rope is especially fat or stiff. I tested a BMS rack on Eldon Hole a few months ago (my first time) on 9mm Gleistein, just using the hyper-bar for friction, and it was terrifying - way too fast. I climbed back out and did it again with my Handy added and it was a dream. You just lift the trailing rope to 90° and you stop moving. But I always use it to the side of my descender, clipped onto the D-ring with it's twistlink, not on the descender krab.

https://www.elevatedclimbing.com/products/handy

Incidentally, I normally use a Kong Banana with custom stainless bobbins (privately sourced, not from Kong), but they've stopped producing them now, so I guess sooner or later I'll have to look for something else - but they would need to have stainless bobbins now, as I'm used to the speed, and aluminium just wears out too fast.

 

[Lara_]

The Raumer Handy is (in my opinion) the finest braking krab around, and is made of stainless steel, and wears very slowly indeed. It has a 'sharp' end, which will stop anything, and a 'round' end if the rope is especially fat or stiff. I tested a BMS rack on Eldon Hole a few months ago (my first time) on 9mm Gleistein, just using the hyper-bar for friction, and it was terrifying - way too fast. I climbed back out and did it again with my Handy added and it was a dream. You just lift the trailing rope to 90° and you stop moving. But I always use it to the side of my descender, clipped onto the D-ring with it's twistlink, not on the descender krab.

https://www.elevatedclimbing.com/products/handy

Incidentally, I normally use a Kong Banana with custom stainless bobbins (privately sourced, not from Kong), but they've stopped producing them now, so I guess sooner or later I'll have to look for something else - but they would need to have stainless bobbins now, as I'm used to the speed, and aluminium just wears out too fast.

I’m interested in why you chose to have it attached to the d-ring not the decender crab. I really wanted to like handys but I actually found that if you use the twist link on the decender crab it becomes extremely ‘floppy’ for want of a better word and I felt like my soft lock could easily slip off. The problem doesn’t happen without the twist link but then it’s a pain to turn around and remove rope from. It happens on the d-ring too but to a lesser extent.

I ended up keeping the handy on my harness as an extra breaking crab - if a rope was very slippy I clip it alongside my normal steel snap gate and put the rope through both. It is adds a lot of friction but feels like my normal steel snap gate set up.

 

[hannahb]

I’m interested in why you chose to have it attached to the d-ring not the decender crab. I really wanted to like handys but I actually found that if you use the twist link on the decender crab it becomes extremely ‘floppy’ for want of a better word and I felt like my soft lock could easily slip off. The problem doesn’t happen without the twist link but then it’s a pain to turn around and remove rope from. It happens on the d-ring too but to a lesser extent.

I think that's where they're designed to go (on the D ring).

 

[ChrisB]

I think that's where they're designed to go (on the D ring).

Correct. That's what the manufacturer says in pwhole's link.

 

[paul]

I have used a Petzl Simple for many years I bought a Raumer Handy some years ago and tried it out (it didn't have the extra twist link at the time so I always connect it to my central maillon). I tried it out and found it a bit jerky but otherwise great. After a few uses it became smooth and I've used it ever since. I never worry about slippery ropes or thin ropes, it always makes effective braking easy and dependable.