Question about stop grip and slip.

[pwhole]

I’m interested in why you chose to have it attached to the d-ring not the decender crab. I really wanted to like handys but I actually found that if you use the twist link on the decender crab it becomes extremely ‘floppy’ for want of a better word and I felt like my soft lock could easily slip off. The problem doesn’t happen without the twist link but then it’s a pain to turn around and remove rope from. It happens on the d-ring too but to a lesser extent.

The main reason for keeping it on the D-ring to the side of the descender is to maintain a straight line for the rope throughout the system, without rubbing on the side plates of the descender, but also not introducing twist into the rope - if you're between rebelays that's less likely to be a problem, but on shorter pitches with a free end it can introduce it. One of the reasons I don't like i'Ds for work is that the device encourages a 90° rotation of the rope as it comes out, and I spend a fair part of each job untangling ropes that are so twisted from this device that they pretty much knot themselves. I much prefer the Rig, as it can feed out of the side like a regular caving descender, and often use a braking krab just to stay familiar and maintain better control (on the rare occasion I actually get on a rope at work now!). Though it still has a wear plate for the 90° lovers.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

I wondered that about the I'D, it looks in many ways like a mega beefed up GriGri.

I've met many climbers who swear blind that GriGri never ever twists ropes on abseil (despite being a ~180 degree bend then and another ~180 degree bend offset by ~90 degrees to the first). But.. on 2 occasions an arborists/climber friend has been caving with me, insisting on using his GriGri, and both times left my ropes a twisty mess on the last pitch.

Not surprised to hear I'D can do it too?

 

[David Rose]

Raumer braking carabiners are great. I find Stops a total pain and always use a Simple and Raumer. With really fast ropes - such as the muddy, 8mm ropes I encountered a while back in the Dachstein - I clip a carabiner above the descender to link the weighted rope and the dead rope, which creates a lot of friction - a steel one if I know it's likely to be needed and so have one with me. To do a hard lock I don't make a loop and pass it over the top of the descender, but simply pass the dead rope through the Raumer twice, which works well and is much quicker.

 

[JAshley73]

I returned last night to a rather short, but difficult pitch, basically descending through a very twisty formation. Using a Stop here, as before, I noticed two things...

1- On this rather difficult pitch where you're constantly having to re-position your body, it would really be nice to switch and use both hands for the brake-strand of the rope. (I'm learning that you all call this the "dead rope," is that correct...?)

2- As I would pause to twist, push off the wall, or rotate about, I noticed a rather uncomfortable tendency to depend on the Stop's brake itself, rather than a proper lock-off, even if it were a quick soft-lock.

3- If I didn't need my left hand for the brake-lever, I might be able to use that free hand to push off the walls, and avoid stopping altogether...



This reinforces the need want to add a "simple" style bobbin to my kit before too long. It would prove useful on these crummy pitches, where a rack is overkill, but the Stop is a PITA. It'll be nice to have both hands available, and not rely on the Stop's brake as a crutch. I'll keep the Stop for my kid's use on family trips.

 

[thehungrytroglobite]

using a backup shunt in the future.

what's a back up shunt?

 

[mikem]

Petzl - Shunt

Please read the Petzl January 2012 statement before buying a Shunt as a backup device. Perhaps consider the Petzl ASAP instead. The Petzl Shunt is NOT recommended as a backup device for rope access.

www.dicksclimbing.com

 

[Loki]

what's a back up shunt?

Something that doesn’t work for something it was never designed for!

 

[PeteHall]

what's a back up shunt?

A Petzl Shunt works a bit like a "dead man's handle" you clip a cows tail to the "stop" side of it, then tow it with your finger and a bit of string on the "go" side.

If you let go, it skids to a stop with little impact.

The trouble is, just like an old stop, instinct isn't to let go if you're falling...

 

[pwhole]

I like to hang my bolting drill from my Shunt - not what it was designed for either, but it's perfect for that job

 

[Loki]

It works very well for the thing it was meant for, that being a replacement for a prussik knot below your belay device when abseiling on twin ropes off cliffs. It allows you to stop hands free to sort out rope tangles etc. However when used as a fall arrest backup when soloing rock climbs or as an ascender it doesn’t work at all if you hold or grab the body of the device, the opposite of a ‘normal’ ascender.
Personally I binned mine very quickly.

 

[paul]

Apparently some years ago in a series of "Clutch and Plummet" on Garlands Pot in Giants Hole, Derbyshire, one was due to someone demonstrating using a Shunt to protect their descent. They lowered themselves down onto their Stop, pushed in the handle and released the Shunt by pulling it down via the body and as they realised they had run out of hands to hold the dead end of the rope, they hit the bottom!

Something I posted before relating to autolock descenders worth a look:

A posting from climber and author Andy Kirkpatrick relating to "Limbic Hijack" and how this affects the usage of many autolock descenders (and other actions where a panic reaction occurs). It includes a story of his first experience of a Petzl Stop and how things didn't go as expected, luckily on the surface in a shop with a well-known caver.

andykirkpatrick.substack.com/p/limbic-hijack

 

[Maisie Syntax]

3- If I didn't need my left hand for the brake-lever, I might be able to use that free hand to push off the walls, and avoid stopping altogether...

This reinforces the need want to add a "simple" style bobbin to my kit before too long. It would prove useful on these crummy pitches, where a rack is overkill, but the Stop is a PITA. It'll be nice to have both hands available, and not rely on the Stop's brake as a crutch. I'll keep the Stop for my kid's use on family trips.

Why don't you just clip a crab through the hole on the right of stop, which effectively disables the function of the braking handle, turning the stop into a simple?

 

[paul]

Because the current Petzl Stop doesn't have this feature?

 

[JAshley73]

Why don't you just clip a crab through the hole on the right of stop, which effectively disables the function of the braking handle, turning the stop into a simple?

That "feature" was removed on the new/re-designed Stop, which I have...

 

[Maisie Syntax]

That "feature" was removed on the new/re-designed Stop, which I have...

Apologies, wasn't aware you had the redesigned model. That particular feature on the previous model of stop was very useful, particularly in the tight situations you described, or if using very thick rope. I suspect many people didn't take full advantage of the feature though.

 

[andrewmcleod]

Extending your Stop away from your body, by clipping it to your short cowstail or a short sling from your D-ring, will make descending tight things much easier (ideally you should have a locking carabiner of course).

I would suggest that you can probably descend tubes which this technique which you will be entirely unable to prussik up, so unless down-only is part of your plan, great caution should be used and ability to use your descender should rarely be the limiting factor in whether a tube is descended or not.

 

[pwhole]

Another good reason to be familiar with rope-walking techniques. I pulled out a Pantin to do a climb up the inside of a floodlight mast on a job, and it was like black magic to my colleagues

 

[huwg]

Extending your Stop away from your body, by clipping it to your short cowstail or a short sling from your D-ring, will make descending tight things much easier (ideally you should have a locking carabiner of course).

I would suggest that you can probably descend tubes which this technique which you will be entirely unable to prussik up, so unless down-only is part of your plan, great caution should be used and ability to use your descender should rarely be the limiting factor in whether a tube is descended or not.

Is this with the new style stop?

I've only got the old one and found the ability to turn it into a simple useful, and have been put off getting a new one because it doesn't have this feature. The only time I've extended it, I have also simplified it. A place I have in mind is the awkward tight sideways start to the final pitch of yockenthwaite, where you end up lying on your left (lever) arm whilst horizontally squeezing sideways a bit.

 

[Maisie Syntax]

Extending your Stop away from your body, by clipping it to your short cowstail or a short sling from your D-ring, will make descending tight things much easier (ideally you should have a locking carabiner of course).

I would suggest that you can probably descend tubes which this technique which you will be entirely unable to prussik up, so unless down-only is part of your plan, great caution should be used and ability to use your descender should rarely be the limiting factor in whether a tube is descended or not.

It is possible to ascend very tight pitches such as those described, but it is a complete faff, unnerving, and certainly very slow progress. You'll probably need to put your hand jammer on a long cowstail and extend your footloop though, as you'll have incredibly limited room to raise/bend your leg. Depending on how tight the the restriction is, progress may be down to a few inches at a time. A pantin may help, but if you get that part wrong, it's all going to go very tits-up in a big way, so I wouldn't recommend it - at all. I have used this technique on a couple of occasions (original exploration in the Pyrenees) with a back-up plan by way of assistance (from a pal at the top of the pitch), so although it can be done, I really, really, wouldn't recommend it.

 

[paul]

(From a previous post of mine) If you have access to "Alpine Caving Techniques" by Gerorges Marbach and Bernard Tourte, there's a diagram and explanation of the "Vertaco" braking technique on page 144.
It recommends that when abseiling in narrow shafts, etc. attaching the descender to the short cowstail so that the descender is at face level which prevents it jamming against your chest as it would do when attached to the harness in the usual way.
In order to provide some braking, you route the rope through the karabiner attached to the descender rather than through a separate karabiner or Handy, etc in the usual way and apply braking by pulling on the rope in an upwards direction, i.e., "Vertaco".