Question about stop grip and slip.

[JAshley73]

(From a previous post of mine) If you have access to "Alpine Caving Techniques" by Gerorges Marbach and Bernard Tourte, there's a diagram and explanation of the "Vertaco" braking technique on page 144.
It recommends that when abseiling in narrow shafts, etc. attaching the descender to the short cowstail so that the descender is at face level which prevents it jamming against your chest as it would do when attached to the harness in the usual way.
In order to provide some braking, you route the rope through the karabiner attached to the descender rather than through a separate karabiner or Handy, etc in the usual way and apply braking by pulling on the rope in an upwards direction, i.e., "Vertaco".

In the case of extending the descender via a cowstail, I'd be tempted to route the dead rope through a krab on the D-ring, and then back up to the attachment krab of the cowstail/descender. You'd then be able to pull "down" on the dead rope to slow/stop your descent, and with very little effort due to the extra bends. This would give the hands lots of options for comfort, and space.

Perhaps not the wisest of ideas after experience though?

 

[paul]

Here's a photo of the bit of the book "Alpine Caving Techniques" by Gerorges Marbach and Bernard Tourte I was referring to:

 

[porgzilla]

Here's a photo of the bit of the book "Alpine Caving Techniques" by Gerorges Marbach and Bernard Tourte I was referring to:

View attachment 21672

Banging!

Any tips for going back up

 

[paul]

Banging!

Any tips for going back up

Yes, always look up now and then! I didn't do this on the entrance to Bar Pot (Gaping Gill) and got jammed in a section which was too narrow. I could just get a finger to my chest jammer to release the cam a bit to down prusik a few inches a time and after about ten minutes of this, I moved to the side a bit where it was less narrow and continued upwards!

 

[cap n chris]

Banging!

Any tips for going back up

When ascending very squeezy bits, use your hand jammer (obviously you are connected to it) and your Pantin; your chest jammer is not attached to the rope because this can result in an impossible to solve hang up if you force upwards into somewhere too narrow; with the hand jammer and Pantin combo you have safety (hand) and progression (foot) while facilitating relative free movement of your body. I have some video which I'll try to locate.

Descent: 3:23.
Ascent: 12:35 (Tom is connected but I never connected chest jammer for this ascent).
Film here: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/eh3h...ey=v8ztq62oqkfrm8dnjf696opxm&st=ir7r8711&dl=0

 

[Samouse1]

Yes, always look up now and then! I didn't do this on the entrance to Bar Pot (Gaping Gill) and got jammed in a section which was too narrow. I could just get a finger to my chest jammer to release the cam a bit to down prusik a few inches a time and after about ten minutes of this, I moved to the side a bit where it was less narrow and continued upwards!

I'll definitely echo the looking up bit, to make sure you're going through the widest bit, having recently had to rescue someone from Link pot entrance who had prussiked up into a narrower part and tried to force his way through. He unfortunately could manage to down prussik, and spent an hour or so on the rope, luckily being none the worse for wear after coming out (although a round of drinks was bought!)

 

[porgzilla]

When ascending very squeezy bits, use your hand jammer (obviously you are connected to it) and your Pantin; your chest jammer is not attached to the rope because this can result in an impossible to solve hang up if you force upwards into somewhere too narrow; with the hand jammer and Pantin combo you have safety (hand) and progression (foot) while facilitating relative free movement of your body. I have some video which I'll try to locate.

Descent: 3:23.
Ascent: 12:35 (Tom is connected but I never connected chest jammer for this ascent).
Film here: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/eh3h...ey=v8ztq62oqkfrm8dnjf696opxm&st=ir7r8711&dl=0

Thanks, I appreciate the input.
I'll watch the video when back home later, and I like the advice.
I had a right to-do coming out the first pitch in Newby Moss Pot and basically ascended by brute strengthening an inch at a time. I wasn't sure whether to use the pantin because of the construction at the pitch head but can see how it would make sense with just the hand jammer and not chest jammer.

Sadly I lost my pantin in Grange Rigg the other week.

Are there any super tight pitches with easy access anyone could recommend to practise at?

 

[Babyhagrid]

Are there any super tight pitches with easy access anyone could recommend to practise at?

Parts of jingling pot are in a rift on the gully route. I find i have to really on my panyin whilst coming out

 

[langcliffe]

Are there any super tight pitches with easy access anyone could recommend to practise at?

That depends on what you mean by 'super tight'. As mentioned above, the entrance to Link is probably the most commonly used tight pitch in the Dales. The top of the Bar Pot entrance pitch is also on the snug side. I think the tightest one I have been in is the second of the three pitches that drop from Mancunian Way into Clough's Passage. I am not the chunkiest of cavers, but it is the only where I have had to put my descender on my short cowstail. The late, great, Mike Wooding got stuck in there for several minutes whilst descending, with his feet dangling about 2 metres off the floor.

 

[Babyhagrid]

ammered ole is very tight apparently. But does involve going into giggling a fair way to get to

 

[rm128]

Are there any super tight pitches with easy access anyone could recommend to practise at?

As I recall, Potts Beck Pot in Littondale has a very tight surface pitch and isn’t too long a walk.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

Here's a photo of the bit of the book "Alpine Caving Techniques" by Gerorges Marbach and Bernard Tourte I was referring to:

View attachment 21672

I hope the illustration fellow is careful not to get the flame of his stinky/acetylene on that rope!

 

[Cantclimbtom]

Banging!

Any tips for going back up

Second the suggestion of Bar Pot for practice, it's tight enough to be snug, but not too tight (for the averagely proportioned) that it could be used a practice piece, not a test piece. The tight bit is quite short also. It's tight enough that I couldn't turn my head side to side at the tightest point.

Don't forget that even if you are on a rope, you are allowed to chimney (climb) as well . If you try Bar Pot... don't , I repeat don't... climb right up to the Y hang anchors or you'll struggle to get off the rope. Instead get out sideways as early as you can. If possible rig a bit of rope from the anchor *before* the Y hang so you can haul yourself out diagonally near the top. I found it highly entertaining and big grin making, but I did see someone get very badly caught out by it!

 

[Mark Wright]

I found the Nettle Pot entrance shaft quite snug the last time I climbed out of it, having just failed to get through Freeze Squeeze..

 

[Loki]

I hope the illustration fellow is careful not to get the flame of his stinky/acetylene on that rope!

Having tried to melt the end of a rope with my carbide back in the day I can clarify that he is in no danger of melting the rope! Not tried a loaded rope though .
More thought provoking is his connection to the descender with a snap gate

 

[hannahb]

Not to mention his tape cowstails

I think the snapgate is just "one of those things" you've to weigh up if you use this technique

 

[ChrisB]

It will be a snapgate in the picture to make it clear that it was on the cowstail - when the book was written nobody had anything other than snapgates on the their cowstails

 

[JAshley73]

If you all will permit a slight thread hi-jack - although, this thread IS about most things bobbins - a brief review of the CT Aclese DX bobbin descender...

I very kind caver let me borrow a Petzl Simple and this CT Aclese for the weekend to try them out. I did several reps of climb, changeover, rappel on both the Simple and the CT Aclese... Some quick impressions...



-The Raumer Handy - I was given one of these to try, and was immedately not a fan. It seemed like locking off with the Handy would be a big pain in the butt, and I quickly stopped trying it.

-The Petzl Simple - was nice to use, having both hands "free" to do whatever, after using a Stop for a while. I liked it.

-The CT Aclese DX - While it took a brief moment to familiarize myself with the braking krab, it quickly became the favorite. With the braking krab positioned the correct way, lock-offs were quick & easy. I also felt like this device had much better friction-control than the Simple. I was able to hold the brake strand near my hip - much like you would with a rappel rack - and still have very nice control. I couldn't do this with the Simple. With the Simple, this required too much effort to do safely & comfortably. I realize this is most likely rope dependent, but it was a nice surprise with the CT Aclese. Needless to say, the CT Aclese quickly became my favorite. I'll look to add one to my kit before too long.

 

[hannahb]

I think we do our hard locks very differently! Unless I have misinterpreted your photos.

 

[ChrisB]

I think we do our hard locks very differently! Unless I have misinterpreted your photos.

That was my thought too. I was puzzled that you found locking off difficult with the Handy, but having seen how you lock off I think I understand.