There is a shaft in a near locality, that if you drop a burning newspaper with a small rock for weight, it reaches a point where the shale gas ignites and explodes, if you do this, do not look down the shaft because you're gonna lose your eyebrows.
Radon in Giants
- Thread starter pwhole
- Start date
Mrs Trellis
Well-known member
How long did it take for your eyebrows to grow back?
The albino look went to full affro in a matter of weeks, the red face stayed for a long time.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Giants is widely acknowledged to be the cave with the highest levels of Radon in the world (Radon being the no.2 cause of lung cancer globally, after smoking) and BCA/BCRA Radon research corroborates this. Is there a duty of care to tell the wider caving community not to visit it more than, say, once a year, or something along those lines - certainly for Derbyshire-centric cavers at the very least - or are people just supposed to be telepathic and know the risks instinctively.
I used to smoke 100 park drive a day and cave in maskell, oxlow and giants, possibly 5 trips a week over 30 years, also trips into most of the castleton catchment areas, no risk assessment, no method statement, before the science took off we just got on with what wanted to do / achieve.
AR
Well-known member
I've smelt H2S in some of the soughs that go through shale, but also in the far end of Clayton Mine which is nowhere near and shale - there's a side heading where it bubbles up from the depths, but the Ecton geology is a law unto itself...
cap n chris
Well-known member
I'm pleased to hear that. It kinda proves, albeit anecdotally, that the IRR2017 regs are a fanciful piece of nonsense, best ignored.
Boy Engineer
Active member
As an ex-Radiation Protection Supervisor at a group of non-coal mines, I do hope that’s meant ironically. There was plenty of evidence back in the 80s of the risk that radon daughters posed. I’m genuinely delighted that some of the smokers on here have dodged the bullet, but let’s not pretend there isn’t an issue with radon decay products and health. Some of the effect may be down to airborne dust levels and electrostatic attachment (a similar mechanism is what makes smoke particles and radon daughters such a problem); we typically don’t see those sorts of dust loading in wet caves in particular. But just my two-pennorth, appreciating that a lot had happened in nearly 40 years.
Cantclimbtom
Well-known member
Surprised in this unfortunately litigious society that giants doesn't have a chain at waist height across just inside the entrance with a sign saying "Danger High Levels of Radon gas have been recorded in this cave. Enter at own risk".
Although before someone could say "what about the insurance?" that may ruin things for people who instruct groups commercially and/or student clubs.
Maybe continuing the 3 wise monkey approach is best, especially as students/instructees will likely spend such a short time in there (in the bigger scheme of things) the overall risk would be insignificant. But diggers and other regular visitors are a different situation.
Although before someone could say "what about the insurance?" that may ruin things for people who instruct groups commercially and/or student clubs.
Maybe continuing the 3 wise monkey approach is best, especially as students/instructees will likely spend such a short time in there (in the bigger scheme of things) the overall risk would be insignificant. But diggers and other regular visitors are a different situation.
Pete K
Well-known member
The professional sector logs radon exposure for instructors and clients in accordance with IRR2017 and the BCA's radon code of practice 'Radon Underground'. You'll find instructors generally know significantly more about radon than most recreational cavers because it is a part of our working lives in the Peak and a legal obligation to monitor our exposure to it.
DCA is starting to put some money into a long term radon monitoring program for raising awareness in recreational caving. This will add to the work BCA did several years ago.
Is that really the case? Do we really live in a litigious society? I'm not arguing the opposite (I just don't know enough about it), I'm just asking a question.
I am aware that many people think that and say that we live in a litigious society, but where is the evidence? Are people really suing each other – or, more pertinently, local authorities, businesses, the National Trust, farmers, landowners, etc. – right left and centre, or is this just scare-mongering?
cap n chris
Well-known member
My comment was sarcasm. I retired from professional caving due to the hurdles maintaining the CIC award in the face of Rn222 logging requirements, presuming they were to be done accurately.
Cantclimbtom
Well-known member
Well, I was using the term in a fairly lazy way sorry, to encompass both actual legal actions and avoiding things due to fear of legal action (whether that action is likely or not) and a general "can't do that.. what about the insurance" attitude. Definitely I see this stuff myself and personally I find it increasing (although that's anecdotal, not statistical evidence)
Already a digression on a Radon thread so not going to offer a big shopping-list of moans, but as just one example Mile End Climbing Wall a while ago not allowing me and my son to boulder together (not roped climbing) as he was only 17 and didn't hold NICAS (level 4?) certifications. They still have that policy against <18 "because of the insurance" and "cover themselves if any problems". I used to boulder there when I was <18 *unsupervised* outrageous!!, although it wasn't called bouldering back then
Anyway, before I get rage triggered
back to Radon... ...Shirley you'd want a lead door to contain the issue...
I think you meant that as a joke but in case anyone is confused about the difference between radiation and radioactivity, a lead door would do nothing to reduce the hazard, in fact any kind of door would increase it.
Radon 222 is an alpha emitter, so the radiation from it won't get through a paper bag. There are no beams of radiation coming from the cave. The hazard is the radioactivity of the gas, as when breathed in, the alpha particles will penetrate the cell walls (which are less robust than paper bags) and damage the cells of the lungs.
The best way to minimise the hazard is ventilation, to flush the radon out into the atmosphere. So any kind of door would bad.
pwhole
Well-known member
I always understood that the reason only Giants had such a high radon reading is that it was the only cave tested in that area (in Rob Hyland's report) - I would have thought it would be likely that all the 'P' swallet caves have similar levels, and probably Odin, Coalpithole Mine, etc. too. Unless others know different?
It was noticed some years ago that, in the Peak District, a number of active cavers who were non-smokers had died from lung cancer and it was felt this seemed to be higher than would have been expected in the "normal" run of things. (At least 2 of them were cave instructors who regularly visited Giants.) A number of active cavers who were smokers had also died from lung cancer. An attempt was made to determine whether this was statistically significant but there were not enough cases overall to be able to make a case. It's just that many of us had a suspicion that there seemed to be too many active cavers who were non-smokers for this to be a co-incidence.
The other point is that, if a non-smoker acquires a nasty cough which won't go away, lung cancer is lower on the list of possible diagnoses than it would be for a smoker. Hence lung cancer is less likely to be spotted early enough for treatment to make a difference and many cases are not picked up before they have already reached stage 4.
I guess worry about lung cancer is low down on most caver's priorities.
The other point is that, if a non-smoker acquires a nasty cough which won't go away, lung cancer is lower on the list of possible diagnoses than it would be for a smoker. Hence lung cancer is less likely to be spotted early enough for treatment to make a difference and many cases are not picked up before they have already reached stage 4.
I guess worry about lung cancer is low down on most caver's priorities.
Pete K
Well-known member
As well as Hyland's thesis, some more recent published radon figures for the Peak area can be seen on p23 & p24 of Radon Underground here:
PICA has a significant database of radon readings funded by its members. I cannot share that commercial data but I can say that the other P swallets that were tested are at higher levels, and some can reach a similar level to Giants at times. Gautries is pretty high, and parts of P8 in summer. Snelslow is not as bad due to the very open ventilation. Odin is on DCA's list to check this summer.
wellyjen
Well-known member
Not just the alpha particles from the Radon itself. Once in the lungs, the daughter products themselves decay by a variety of routes, emitting Alpha, or Beta particles each time, till it reaches a stable Lead isotope. Each particle can cause further cell damage and mutation through the decay chain.
Source and license https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File
.PNG#mw-jump-to-license "Big grin :D")
ecay_chain(4n+2,_Uranium_series).PNG#mw-jump-to-licenseSimilar threads
