Radon in Giants

[cap n chris]

I guess worry about lung cancer is low down on most caver's priorities.

The question, though, is should it be higher in light of the number of caves in the UK where the levels are orders of magnitude higher than the safety threshold?

 

[Babyhagrid]

Possibly the risk of driving semi regularly to other caving regions and around various regions increases chance of death more than the radon. That and the pub afterwards.
At what point does going caving save you from cancer from the sun ?

 

[spelfish]

Do strong draughts have any impact on radon levels? One could theorise that radon would be more likely to accumulate in cavities with no air movement whereas it might be flushed out by a strong draught, analogous to using (or not using) a radon trap in a house.

 

[Tritim230]

Do strong draughts have any impact on radon levels? One could theorise that radon would be more likely to accumulate in cavities with no air movement whereas it might be flushed out by a strong draught, analogous to using (or not using) a radon trap in a house.

We had a passive radon trap put in for our small extension as per Building Regs.

Thought it a joke TBH. A ventilated one makes sense.

 

[T pot 2]

Adding to my previous post of smoking and time spent underground in giants and other associated holes, i also lived i a village whose houses had high radon levels.
I sometimes wonder of my longevity!

 

[spelfish]

Adding to my previous post of smoking and time spent underground in giants and other associated holes, i also lived i a village whose houses had high radon levels.
I sometimes wonder of my longevity!

I used to own a house in Cornwall where we had a radon trap and an extractor fan - it made sense to me but I don't know how it translates to caves.

 

[mikem]

Yes, a lead door would be worse for people going inside. Problem is that radon levels aren't constant, so actually working out your exposure, without a meter every time, is nigh on impossible - hence worse case scenario applies.

 

[Bob Mehew]

The question, though, is should it be higher in light of the number of caves in the UK where the levels are orders of magnitude higher than the safety threshold?

When we were revising Radon Underground for the 2nd edition we did discuss the topic with some statisticians who had done similar work for other radiation problems. The answer came back was that we did not then have a good enough grasp of the the number of cavers and their exposure estimates. Radon Underground 3rd edition stated "Given a typical caving trip could last some four hours and taking a typical radon concentration of say 3,000 Bqm-3 (the mean value of those cited in Table 1.1) and using the risk relationship computed above of 4 x 10-10 per hBqm-3, gives an increased risk of lung cancer from one trip of about 1 in 200,000." It went on to report that "The independent Advisory Group on Ionising Radiation (AGIR) stated that at the average national long-term residential radon concentration of 21 Bqm-3 the cumulative risk of death from lung cancer by the age of 75 years is 0.4 %, or 4 in every 1,000 for a lifelong non-smoker." So distinguishing a group of deaths due to radon exposure in caves from 'natural' exposure is difficult to say the least, especially when we are dealing with a total caving population of in the ball park of 5000, many of whom won't be life long cavers.

 

[Brains]

Needs the dig in the roof at the top of Corkscrew Avenue finished. Can't be far off the surface, it would give a good through draft

 

[mikem]

Statistics will be particularly impossible, due to factors such as I did a year of mine exploration in North Pennines and 12 years on Mendip before I joined a club / BCA....

 

[Bob Mehew]

We had a passive radon trap put in for our small extension as per Building Regs.

Thought it a joke TBH. A ventilated one makes sense.

It does make a hell of a difference. Instead of the radon being released from the earth into the house, it goes out into the outside atmosphere where it is significantly diluted by wind compared to the level which would be in the house. There is also quite reduction in radon levels in an upstairs room compared to that in a ground floor room. And a cellar is even worse. Ventilation is the main way to deal with a radon problem if it can't be avoided by something like a membrane when laying the foundations. But even a passive sump will have some level of exchange of air with the outside thus diluting the problem. Though obviously an active i.e. fan assisted sump is better.

 

[T pot 2]

Needs the dig in the roof at the top of Corkscrew Avenue finished. Can't be far off the surface, it would give a good through draft

AR and myself stopped digging the aven when we dislodged a rock of some meter cube, this blocked the avon that we had entered which was 6 mtr high, the steel prodding rods got jammed in too, they are still there. R H and D A radilocated it and from the top of the aven it was estimated we only had 4mtrs to dig in order to surface.
Drop me a mail with you phone number for more info.
T

 

[Mark]

PICA has a significant database of radon readings funded by its members. I cannot share that commercial data

I find it a little bit annoying, that Pica members who use the caves commercially are not willing to share radon data for free

 

[Bob Mehew]

I find it a little bit annoying, that Pica members who use the caves commercially are not willing to share radon data for free

Because they pay a sizable sum for the monitoring system which produces the data which is predominantly for their benefit. When I last participated in the review which produced the 3rd edition of Radon Underground, I did not feel it was appropriate to suggest that BCA negotiated to pay for access to the data. But feel free to make the proposal to DCA / BCA.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

AR and myself stopped digging the aven when we dislodged a rock of some meter cube, this blocked the avon that we had entered which was 6 mtr high, the steel prodding rods got jammed in too, they are still there. R H and D A radilocated it and from the top of the aven it was estimated we only had 4mtrs to dig in order to surface.
Drop me a mail with you phone number for more info.
T

If the radiolocation accuracy is confident, and 5 metres limestone, maybe crowdfunding the cost of a borehole drill into the top of the aven might cause a chimney effect? If farmer approves..but it might cost a grand+ or something so might take some fundraising (unless some poorly supervised rope access workers on the way back from a geotechnical job "accidentally" drilled a hole )

 

[Brains]

AR and myself stopped digging the aven when we dislodged a rock of some meter cube, this blocked the avon that we had entered which was 6 mtr high, the steel prodding rods got jammed in too, they are still there. R H and D A radilocated it and from the top of the aven it was estimated we only had 4mtrs to dig in order to surface.
Drop me a mail with you phone number for more info.
T

Perhaps the next generation would like to doff a "cap" at the problem
My days of messing around with an overhead dig are long gone
I am sure a vent could be achieved relatively quickly...

 

[T pot 2]

If the radiolocation accuracy is confident, and 5 metres limestone, maybe crowdfunding the cost of a borehole drill into the top of the aven might cause a chimney effect? If farmer approves..but it might cost a grand+ or something so might take some fundraising (unless some poorly supervised rope access workers on the way back from a geotechnical job "accidentally" drilled a hole )

The five mtrs from surface to where we stopped was a vertical dross filled rift / tube, we exposed it at ground level at the radio location point.

 

[mrodoc]

When we were revising Radon Underground for the 2nd edition we did discuss the topic with some statisticians who had done similar work for other radiation problems. The answer came back was that we did not then have a good enough grasp of the the number of cavers and their exposure estimates. Radon Underground 3rd edition stated "Given a typical caving trip could last some four hours and taking a typical radon concentration of say 3,000 Bqm-3 (the mean value of those cited in Table 1.1) and using the risk relationship computed above of 4 x 10-10 per hBqm-3, gives an increased risk of lung cancer from one trip of about 1 in 200,000." It went on to report that "The independent Advisory Group on Ionising Radiation (AGIR) stated that at the average national long-term residential radon concentration of 21 Bqm-3 the cumulative risk of death from lung cancer by the age of 75 years is 0.4 %, or 4 in every 1,000 for a lifelong non-smoker." So distinguishing a group of deaths due to radon exposure in caves from 'natural' exposure is difficult to say the least, especially when we are dealing with a total caving population of in the ball park of 5000, many of whom won't be life long cavers.

What I have said a number of times!

 

[Cantclimbtom]

My (unqualified) understanding is that cancer was until recently... seen as basically a single mechanism, certain paterns genetic damage accumulating. That is a problematic explanation as many things that don't damage DNA, are proven to increase the occurence of cancers, examples nitrites in diet and very small carbon particles. There are also examples of the same DNA mutations not leading to cancer so the DNA explanation is incomplete. The thinking moved on to be a combination of 2 factors simultaneously: genetic damage in the presence of a specific inflamatory mechanism (associated with elevated interleukin-1-beta). This is nicely summarised here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-62797777. From this thinking the absolutely perfect storm for both factors would be for someone to be a smoker who spends a long time digging in Giant's Hole eating bacon sandwiches

Clearly the Radon is a risk factor, but it may be multiplied (not additive) by other factors. I'm no example of a squeeky clean diet and lifestyle so I can't criticise anyone, but if I was healthier maybe the risk of visiting Giant's would be lower

(Grateful for any critique of the linked article above from the various actually medically qualified folks here)

 

[spelfish]

No'one has answered my question about draughts. Simplistically, it would seem reasonable that draughty caves would have less radon than those with still air. Are there any data to support or refute this idea?