Radon Monitoring

[DCA]

Derbyshire Caving Association's project to this year carry out radon monitoring in a number of Peak District caves and mines took an important step forward yesterday when the UK Health Security Agency monitors were distributed to volunteers at The Chapel, Castleton. Most of the locations to be monitored are in the Castleton area.
DCA intends to make the data obtained following removal of the monitors in a month's time fully available to the caving public. This will be the first time that such data has become available since the British Caving Association's nationwide monitoring exercise 6 years ago. In fact, 3 of the selected locations, close to or on the limestone/gritstone interface, have never previously been monitored as far as DCA is aware.
DCA would like to thank volunteers Nigel Berry, Charley Cooley, Rob Eavis, Martin Long, Sam Tittensor and Victoria Kocher for giving up their time to help with this project by installing monitors, and also the TSG for allowing the use of their premises yesterday morning.
Here I am at The Chapel handing out monitoring packs to volunteers (photo courtesy of Charley Cooley).

Mike Higgins
DCA Vice-Chair

 

[cap n chris]

If the readings are horrifying will you suppress them or publish them with suitable recommendations on restricting time underground?

 

[mikem]

Giants is already known to be (but results aren't consistent though the year)

 

[wellyjen]

Could be worth posting a picture of a monitor, so cavers will know what they look like.

 

[Pete K]

They look like this (don't open the bag!). Mike has laminated notices to hang with them so it'll be clear what they are. Cavers in Derbyshire may well have come across this type of thing before, PICA has been doing occasional radon monitoring with similar detectors for around 20 years.

If the readings are horrifying will you suppress them or publish them with suitable recommendations on restricting time underground?

Knowledge is power Chris. DCA will publish the results and what it might mean for cavers, and allow you all to make your own life choices.

 

[T pot 2]

If the radon count is high at certain locations could this lead to access restrictions
re - land owner liability ?

 

[pwhole]

If the radon count is high at certain locations could this lead to access restrictions
re - land owner liability ?

No, the land owner has no liability, as it's our choice whether to visit or not, and so any risks borne are ours alone. The new DCA leaflet on land 'manager' liability is almost complete

 

[Pete K]

"Volenti non fit injuria"

 

[Boy Engineer]

"Volenti non fit injuria"

We all feel properly middle-class now.

 

[mch]

If the radon count is high at certain locations could this lead to access restrictions
re - land owner liability ?

Radon counts underground at a number of locations in the Peak District (and other parts of the UK) were carried out several years ago by BCA and the data is freely available at https://british-caving.org.uk/about-bca/working-groups/radon/ , as is the BCA publication Radon Underground which tells you in detail all you need to know on the subject. I think that any landowner concerned about the subject will be well aware of this and, as pointed out in the above posts, they do not in any event have any liability.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

No, the land owner has no liability, as it's our choice whether to visit or not, and so any risks borne are ours alone. The new DCA leaflet on land 'manager' liability is almost complete

Don't underestimate what an ass both the law and insurance companies can be can be. If the landowner or tenant farmer or whoever puts up a sign saying "Dangerous cave, do not enter" and a 3 foot high fence - they're probably covered.
But what if someone claimed (or their insurance company claimed) they might be reasonably unaware of whichever risk it was and nothing had been done to warn them. More likely an insurance company suing (if the individual was making an injury claim on some insurance) rather than the individual themself

 

[mch]

Don't underestimate what an ass both the law and insurance companies can be can be. If the landowner or tenant farmer or whoever puts up a sign saying "Dangerous cave, do not enter" and a 3 foot high fence - they're probably covered.
But what if someone claimed (or their insurance company claimed) they might be reasonably unaware of whichever risk it was and nothing had been done to warn them. More likely an insurance company suing (if the individual was making an injury claim on some insurance) rather than the individual themself

The legal position as quoted by Pete K above has been tested in the courts a number of times in recent years, some of them in caving contexts. Off the top of my head, there was a guy who jumped into a pond in a park somewhere down south and injured himself despite warning signs (which if I remember rightly did not specify the possible dangers). More relevant was the lad who drowned in Manchester Hole and the lad who fell to his death down Gaping Gill by wandering into Jib Tunnel without a light. All these claims were thrown out by the Courts, although I think there may have been some liability on the organiser of the trip in the Manchester Hole case. There are probably other cases. It's also worth noting that as far as I am aware there has never been a successful claim against a caving organisation covered by BCA insurance.

 

[pwhole]

In public-practical terms, this would mean, say, the National Trust fencing off the perimeter path of Winnats Pass, as someone may fall off it if they don't. Not all risks can (or should) be mitigated, and there are many unfenced and undocumented holes on their land - though we have documented as many as we can. That said, we persuaded them to put a fence around our (new) surface hole, specifically to create a legal boundary, however flimsy a physical boundary it was, in order to avoid any claims from disgruntled members of the public who 'fell down' it.

 

[AR]

The legal position as quoted by Pete K above has been tested in the courts a number of times in recent years, some of them in caving contexts. Off the top of my head, there was a guy who jumped into a pond in a park somewhere down south and injured himself despite warning signs (which if I remember rightly did not specify the possible dangers).

I think you're referring to this one - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomlinson_v_Congleton_BC

 

[mch]

I think you're referring to this one - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomlinson_v_Congleton_BC

Thanks AR - that's the one.

 

[spelfish]

Given the main risk from radon exposure is lung cancer and there are several other risk factors leading to lung cancer, It would be difficult to make a case against a specific landlord that you had suffered harm from radon exposure in one particular cave (unless you had spent several years employed there as a non-smoking cave guide or had indulged in a really prolonged, marathon dig). Cumulative exposure in a number of caves might increase your risk but which cave would you blame and which landowner would you sue?

Realistically, this seems to me (as a non-lawyer) more an insurance risk - if one caving area is shown to have particularly high radon levels, an insurance company might be tempted to raise its premiums for caving in that area. Alternatively they could raise premiums all round or specifically exclude lung cancer from the risks covered.

 

[mch]

Realistically, this seems to me (as a non-lawyer) more an insurance risk - if one caving area is shown to have particularly high radon levels, an insurance company might be tempted to raise its premiums for caving in that area. Alternatively they could raise premiums all round or specifically exclude lung cancer from the risks covered.

If you're talking about BCA insurance, that is purely for public liability, so isn't really relevant to radon. One caving area is actually proven to have particularly high radon levels and that is the Peak District - just check the data in the link that I posted this morning. However, I'm not aware of any standalone insurance cover for health problems caused by radon.

 

[cap n chris]

If the radon count is high at certain locations could this lead to access restrictions
re - land owner liability ?

It's nothing to do with landowner liability. Landowners are protected by the "Volenti non fit injuria" principle. It's to do with BCA liability; the BCA has funded the monitoring and therefore is the over-reaching organisation that has to implement forwarding the information which results therefrom to its membership*; publishing it (arguably) covers that but if the readings are egregious that may be an insufficient stance to take.

* It could be argued that the readings are totally irrelevant to cavers who are not engaged in working practices (e.g. professional cavers are definitely subject to the IRR2017 legislation - which is why professional caving is largely unsustainable nowadays). Plenty of Derbyshire cavers have died from lung cancer but, again, it's been argued that this isn't sufficient to make an a priori case stick. Whatever, personally I'd never return to Derbyshire knowing what I know now. But that's probably welcomed all round because I'm a known stirrer. Also I do rather like to minimise my risk(s).

 

[Bob Mehew]

Plenty of Derbyshire cavers have died from lung cancer

My count is quite low. Would you please send me privately the names of those who you believe justify using the phrase "plenty of". I say privately, because I don't want this point to be broadcast causing who knows what concern and possible hurt to the deceased's partners.

 

[Pete K]

(e.g. professional cavers are definitely subject to the IRR2017 legislation - which is why professional caving is largely unsustainable nowadays).

Been my main type of work in the Peak District for close to 20 years now. Easy to comply with IRR2017 if you if want to, once you get your head around it. We have loads of guidance and some great tools freely available.