Recharging Lithium Ion Batteries in Club Huts

Bob Mehew said:
I have just been asked about banning recharging of lithium ion batteries in club huts overnight. My first thought is whether there is sufficient incidence of such fires, despite the graphic tales which arise after one, to warrant such a ban
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This is an important discussion to have, one of my friends had a house fire because of lithium ion batteries, exploding while on charge.

They weren't cheap batteries it was for one of those high power electric motorbikes called a stealth bomber, and he had a fall off the bike and didn't notice any damage to the batteries when putting them on charge when he got home.

He went to bed that night and woke up surrounded in thick black smoke and the fire brigade pumping water though his windows,which made it ignite further but the damage was much worse than I can describe, he had an amazing marine aquarium with all kinds of corals and sea life, which we all know isn't cheap, the fire killed everything in the marine aquarium,
The soot covered everything he owned and he never recovered from that to this day, it's really sad he was just very lucky the fire didn't spread as bad as it could have been but the damage was shocking.

It does make you question about the safety of our batteries, when we take our helmets off to get through tight spots and sometimes while crawling in low spaces your battery pack with get dinged off the rock, but I've not heard of people having issues with Lithium batteries for caving headlamps but that's not to say we shouldn't think of safer ways to store and charge.

But If safety measures was going to be implemented my suggestion would be: you know the metal boxes newsagents use to take deliveries of newspapers and the likes you usually see them outside of shops.

What if they where installed outside of huts with a waterproof power line to plugs inside the box, and people charge there batteries in the box.

Like storing explosives needs an oxidation proof safe, but I don't think it'd need to be at that level, that's why I'd say an outdoor metal lock box (that shops use) would be sufficient.

https://images.app.goo.gl/FrCKwgXZNsSqigtU8
 
On a related matter, what is the correct extinguisher type to use on a lithium battery fire? CO2? I am regularly charging two 710Wh 36.3V batteries. Charged indoors but never leave them on charge overnight.
 
asheshouse said:
On a related matter, what is the correct extinguisher type to use on a lithium battery fire? CO2? I am regularly charging two 710Wh 36.3V batteries. Charged indoors but never leave them on charge overnight.
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Powder or CO2 I would think, unless it differs from a standard electrical fire
 
They have their own extinguishers now:

CommanderEDGE LFX Lithium-ion Battery Fire Extinguishers | CheckFire

The CheckFire Team have been working on a new fire extinguisher range designed specifically to tackle the unique dangers posed by Lithium-ion battery fires. View more.
www.checkfire.co.uk www.checkfire.co.uk

"Special powder extinguishers can also tackle Class D fires (flammable metals). The powder interrupts the chemical reaction within the fire to extinguish it. These extinguishers are not suitable for fires involving fats or deep-fat fryers, as the force of their discharge could scatter the burning fat. They're also not to be used in tight spaces due to the risk of inhaling the powder. Additionally, the powder leaves a residue that can be challenging to clean up after use. [Powder Extinguishers (also called ABC powder extinguishers) are multi-purpose extinguishers, suitable for Class A, B, and C fires (gas fires). ]"

This one claims to be useable in most other situations as well: https://www.lifesafetechnologies.co...-extinguish-multiple-types-of-fire-in-seconds

Review:
 
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Pyromet and liquid vermiculite hand held extinguishers or 1301 halon is the answer for stopping thermal runaway.

Pyromet absorbs the heat the vermiculite sets solid on the cells and halon will blanket the flames while protecting sensitive electronics, cell fires are 'kin scary - don't ask me why I know!!!
 
My understanding, and I'm not an expert so am happy to be corrected by one, is that there are no extinguishers that will put out a lithium-ion battery fire and cool it sufficiently to avoid reignition. I can't find anything about preventing reignition for the LFX or Staysafe, nor any description of what they actually contain, so I'm not fully convinced by them.

A lithium-ion battery fire releases oxygen, so smothering methods don't work. The reference to flammable metals is a red herring, as lithium-ion batteries don't contain lithium metal (non-rechargable lithium batteries do).

The recommended approach is calling the fire service, but that takes time. Other solutions are allowing the fire to burn out, while venting the toxic smoke and avoiding heat transfer to other items, or submerging the item in a container of water (the water will be polluted so ponds and streams should be avoided).

Maybe the specialist extinguishers are appropriate for controlling the fire, after which submersion in water will prevent reignition?
 
I believe fire brigades are planning to submerge EV car fires in a 40ft container of water for up to 3 days if they should catch fire.
Certainly get the battery outside / away from anything flammable and water can cool it down to start with if you've got nothing else. Unplug / turn off any chargers first though.

Another option could be a bucket of sand.

A single battery is 3.6 volts so no issue with electric shock - although a 150 / 200 v battery pack may be more of an issue.
 
If you're making a list of things to be worried about you can add underwater dive scooters to the list. I have a friend's Suex XK1 sat in my bedroom (too expensive to risk leaving in the shed) that has a 1.34kWh Li-ion battery in it. That's the equivalent capacity to about 200 vapes or head torches. (A Tesla model 3 is 55kWh.)

There was an incident over a decade ago at the High Springs Country Inn in cave country Florida where a Salvo Li-ion DPV caught fire whilst the owner was away from his room. Burnt the motel room out.
 
Long range 3 has 75kWh, whilst S and X models are 100kWh (or between 8, and 13,500 x 18650s)
 
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I asked two questions 2 days ago:

Does any one know of a club hut which has a rule about recharging lithium ion batteries (and if so what is it)? Summary answer - At least 3 caving clubs do have rules specifying location but not banning recharging.

And typically how long does it take to recharge a lithium ion battery used in caver's headlamps? Summary answer - some hours, so overnight is normal.

Usefully, people have mentioned the wide range of items which could contain lithium ion batteries, so this is not just a caving light related problem. And that the nature of the problem increases with larger batteries. Charging them in a location which has fire resistant features and is not occupied overnight, which does not impact on fire exit routes and has smoke detectors near bye seem one way forward.

Thank you for the contributions.
 
Most new electric cars would now use Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries which is wet chemistry and these don't cause fires. They are cheaper although heavier than Lithium Ion cell which is the chemistry with the flammable electrolyte.

At the moment electric cars are in the minority and buyers are fewer too as of late, but they will eventually dominate. The problem for huts without a three-phase supply will be delivering the amps that all their power-hungry members will want. Most club huts are wired like a house, not a supermarket or a motorway services. So they'll have to be get a more serious mains power supply and get re-wired to support multiple car chargers.
 
Chocolate fireguard said:
Yes, the YSS was given a 3 phase supply in the last 10 years or so. IIRC the previous single phase supply was delivered via a 70A fuse!
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The YSS was not given a 3 phase supply it had to pay for it.we spent a lot of money after the 3 phase supply was installed fitting a 3 phase internal fuse box as part of a long term plan.
When most clubs with huts received massive COVID grants the YSS spent it to give 21 KW Electric car charging ( 3 times faster than the national park charges ) this facility is open for anyone to use 24/7.and much cheaper to use than the N P machines
To be honest in the 2 years it as not had a great deal of use. With electric cars having a much longer range in future clubs may not need to install electric car charging
 
I find it interesting that there seems to be an expectation that caving huts would provide for electric vehicle charging with all its complications and infrastructure.
There is no expectation on clubs to provide diesel of petrol presently, why would they provide for electric charging?

Am I missing something here?
 
Because the local infrastructure usually has a garage but no electrical charging in more remote areas (you used to be able to get fuel next door to the MCG, now just coffee!)
 
Alan Sp8 said:
The YSS was not given a 3 phase supply it had to pay for it.we spent a lot of money after the 3 phase supply was installed fitting a 3 phase internal fuse box as part of a long term plan.
When most clubs with huts received massive COVID grants the YSS spent it to give 21 KW Electric car charging ( 3 times faster than the national park charges ) this facility is open for anyone to use 24/7.and much cheaper to use than the N P machines
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No offense intended.
 
mikem said:
Because the local infrastructure usually has a garage but no electrical charging in more remote areas (you used to be able to get fuel next door to the MCG, now just coffee!)
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From Priddy you'll be driving down to Wells or Cheddar to get petrol or diesel. EVs can do the same if they need a charge.
 
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