Recharging Lithium Ion Batteries in Club Huts
- Thread starter Bob Mehew
- Start date
JAA
Well-known member
Sustained quantities of water to cool the cells enough to stop thermal runaway progressing.
A Tesla battery is basically hundreds of 18650 cells stuck together with foam.
To cool an electric car fire sufficiently can take 24hrs plus of applying water which is a problem for the fire service.
Be aware that it’s the gassing off stage which is the dangerous one, the gasses produced are extremely toxic and ignition can occur with no warning once they have begun to gas off.
All very dramatic but consequences v likelihood is same as any risk assessment process. Charge stuff during waking hours to reduce likelihood of a fire going undetected.
The bigger risk of fire is your club kitchen and cooking.
JAA
Well-known member
Ahh sorry I missed that. Without discussion of reducing the risk to a tolerable level then not much point discussing it at all as it seems to just be making people scared everything is waiting to explode and kill them and making knee jerk reactions.
I followed that line originally, but in post #31 the OP thanked people for their contributions and mentioned some mitigation himself, so I think the thread can move on. It wouldn't be the first thread on UKC to go off-topic!
But Bob seems happy that he's got info now
Bob Mehew
Well-known member
Yes, I had got what I was after earlier on. But I accept the other comments have been of value. When the topic was first raised, the guy that did so, proposed "Lithium ion batteries must not be charged in the hut overnight, or whilst unattended, or anywhere in a fire escape route." So from the information supplied that would have meant one would not be able to recharge a Lithium ion battery over a Saturday night given the evening visit to the pub. It also would also have covered all devices, so those of us with a smart watch up to a radio could not charge them. Plus technically, all rooms are on a fire escape route.
The off topic information has indicated that that the fires are not that frequent but potentially can have substantial impact. It looks as if one does not want to recharge the cells in an electric car indoors and possibly not an electric bike or scooter (or even an underwater dive scooter) as if one cell goes, the chances are that the rest will join in. For one or two cell devices it looks as if the consequences are tolerable, though a smoke detector is valuable. But for a club situation, I can easily envisage a pile of batteries being charged over a Saturday night. So separating them out in thermally insulated pockets seems like a good idea. (I have yet to get a handle on what that might look like.) Plus devices like lap tops create a slightly different challange. Also, the location of the thermally insulated pockets needs to be in a room with a single door rather than in a corridor so if a cell does go up, it does not impact directly on the way out.
Thanks for the restraint in the off thread comments. ukCaving at its best.
The off topic information has indicated that that the fires are not that frequent but potentially can have substantial impact. It looks as if one does not want to recharge the cells in an electric car indoors and possibly not an electric bike or scooter (or even an underwater dive scooter) as if one cell goes, the chances are that the rest will join in. For one or two cell devices it looks as if the consequences are tolerable, though a smoke detector is valuable. But for a club situation, I can easily envisage a pile of batteries being charged over a Saturday night. So separating them out in thermally insulated pockets seems like a good idea. (I have yet to get a handle on what that might look like.) Plus devices like lap tops create a slightly different challange. Also, the location of the thermally insulated pockets needs to be in a room with a single door rather than in a corridor so if a cell does go up, it does not impact directly on the way out.
Thanks for the restraint in the off thread comments. ukCaving at its best.
Worth noting that, when our club hut was inspected by the Derbyshire Fire & Rescue Service as part of us putting in a new automated fire alarm system, one of things we were told to do was to remove the lamp-charging rack from the wall of the entrance corridor as it was considered to be a safety risk in that position. We first moved it to the wall in the separate washroom/toilet block building so it was nowhere near the main sleeping/living area. However, poeple objected to this and said they wanted the rack moved to the changing room, which is an extension to the original building. So the rack is now on the wall in the changing room, which is the original 2 ft. thick external wall of the hut and separates the changing room from the main living and sleeping area. The DFRS Inspector hasn't yet seen the charging rack in its new position so it will be interesting to see if he has any comments.
Further to the above
Note that there is a fire door between the entrance corridor and the changing room where the batteries are now charged. However, people do sometimes fasten this door open and it doesn't have a DorGard device fitted because of a small step. It would seem that we should ensure that this fire door is always closed when lamps are being charged. The other point is that there are emergency exits from the hut on the opposite side of the building to the changimg room so you can evacuate the hut without having to go past the door leading into the changing room.
Note that there is a fire door between the entrance corridor and the changing room where the batteries are now charged. However, people do sometimes fasten this door open and it doesn't have a DorGard device fitted because of a small step. It would seem that we should ensure that this fire door is always closed when lamps are being charged. The other point is that there are emergency exits from the hut on the opposite side of the building to the changimg room so you can evacuate the hut without having to go past the door leading into the changing room.
wormster
Active member
Lithium-Ion Battery Cabinets - Chemstore UK
Chemstore has introduced a full range of lithium-ion battery cabinets for charging and storage to suit any company's needs and budget.
www.chemstore.co.uk
Cantclimbtom
Well-known member
Plaistow: Lithium battery caused tower block fire, says LFB - BBC News
Firefighters put out blaze at a London tower block and 30 people are evacuated from the building.
www.bbc.co.uk
All the various reports I've seen quoted the same source LFB statement (https://www.london-fire.gov.uk/incidents/2024/october/flat-fire-plaistow/) that the cause was a "lithium battery", but nowhere can I see detail of what type or what for (a vape an escooter or what) just not specified.
I once heard that good journalism didn't just tell you what happened but why it happened. All the journalism on this I've seen so far is practically just copy/paste from LFB
tony from suffolk
Well-known member
Nothing difficult or dangerous in installing your own charging point, SWMBO's car charges to 80% in eighteen minutes & does 280+ miles on a charge. Her employer offers free charging whilst she's in the office courtesy of solar panels. The car's also great to drive. What's not to like?
The YSS hut has Solar panels ( 7Kw of them )
Plus 27 KW of Tesla batteries these charge and discharge constantly 24,/ 7 for almost a year and half now - with the right type of charging Lithium batteries are safe..
The set up also detected that the voltage at Helwith Bridge was going over 265 volts at times.which I am told is very dangerous
Lots of huts are using LPG. and no one seems to worry about that.
Plus 27 KW of Tesla batteries these charge and discharge constantly 24,/ 7 for almost a year and half now - with the right type of charging Lithium batteries are safe..
The set up also detected that the voltage at Helwith Bridge was going over 265 volts at times.which I am told is very dangerous
Lots of huts are using LPG. and no one seems to worry about that.
Critical Mineral Recovery, the plant reprocesses electric vehicle and consumer-grade lithium-ion batteries.Battery factory in Missouri:
x.com
x.com
“[Our] state-of-the-art fire prevention system is designed to detect fires before they start,” the company’s site says. “The system covers all areas where battery materials are stored or processed. It is monitored remotely 24/7 employing high-intensity industrial forward looking infrared camera technology.... [L]ikely the most sophisticated automated and remote supervised and controlled fire suppression systems in the world.”
Fire erupts in southeast Missouri at one of world’s largest lithium-ion battery facilities • Missouri Independent
The Critical Mineral Recovery lithium-ion battery plant near Frederickton, Missouri, caught fire Wednesday, forcing evacuations.
missouriindependent.com
JAA
Well-known member
Whilst I’m not typing this in a professional capacity, most fires I have been to caused by A) batteries, have been as a result of the being damaged/crushed during refuse disposal at the tip,
B) devices such as laptops charging on sofa cushions and the combustible fabric stopping the fan within the device from working.
I think the important thing isn’t so much what you allow to be charged but how you do it. Eg charging on a hard surface not chucked on a sofa etc. The lamp charging area separated from common areas and means of escape by a 60 minute fire door described above sounds a perfectly sensible solution to me
I agree with @Alan Sp8 that club huts probably have greater hazard generally. Cooking being the most likely cause of a fire by far statistically.
B) devices such as laptops charging on sofa cushions and the combustible fabric stopping the fan within the device from working.
I think the important thing isn’t so much what you allow to be charged but how you do it. Eg charging on a hard surface not chucked on a sofa etc. The lamp charging area separated from common areas and means of escape by a 60 minute fire door described above sounds a perfectly sensible solution to me
I agree with @Alan Sp8 that club huts probably have greater hazard generally. Cooking being the most likely cause of a fire by far statistically.
Babyhagrid
Well-known member
Bob Mehew
Well-known member
You seem to be forgetting the antics after the pub involving the stove. But the original prompt started because of a concern over Li ion batteries. The alarming bit is I have had feed back that at least one insurance company (name not known) providing cover for one club hut has included a condition in their building insurance that e-bikes shall not be stored or charged on the premises. I am trying to write something on the topic and will report in due course.
