Rhys
Moderator
If someone has time they could do a proper map overlay, but here's a scribble. The bulk of Redhouse's known passages lie within the pink outlined area. John Wilcock predicted nothing in that zone.
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Redhouse Lane Swallet Update
- Thread starter Tritim230
- Start date
Andy Farrant
Active member
Also compare John Wilcock's Mendip dowsing maps to the Upper Flood Swallet survey or for that matter the Burrington area, the Banwell springs or the Tor Hole - Wigmore area to what is actually known from cave surveys. I wonder if he would have dowsed Tor Hole to Cheddar (which seems to pass through the sandstone of North Hill and then go to Upper Flood) if he hadn't known about Willie's tracer tests? Some of his links don't even go through the limestone. Bunkum. Pure bunkum.
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Tritim230
Well-known member
Although the streamway may take that route.....
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
Not only has dowsing been repeatedly shown not to work under any rigorous experimental conditions, we also have a good understanding of the psychological factors that both create the impression of dowsing (the ideomotor phenomenon) and the build belief in the results (confirmation bias etc.)
Rhys
Moderator
But how come he didn't find the actual Redhouse streamway which we now know exists and flows into the pink zone?
Rhys
Moderator
Without access to the proper files or drawing packages, I made the following rough and ready pic. Relying on locations of Redhouse entrance and Symonds Yat Swallet for position and scaling. There may be some overlap between Snowflake/Marble River passages in the south of the cave and a very wide dowsed line.
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These were the dowsing predictions for Upper Flood
Dowsing predictions in red, actual passage surveyed shown in yellow. Despite the dowsing-predicted passages being hundreds of feet wide, much of the actual cave cave in yellow was missed by dowsing. (nb cave passage - yellow - hard to see as it's not hundreds of feet wide).
Dowsing predictions in red, actual passage surveyed shown in yellow. Despite the dowsing-predicted passages being hundreds of feet wide, much of the actual cave cave in yellow was missed by dowsing. (nb cave passage - yellow - hard to see as it's not hundreds of feet wide).
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David Rose
Active member
John Wilcock was a very nice man, who still came up to Ario on expeditions well into his seventies. However, the evidnce suggests his dowsing results were, indeeed, bunkum.
Peter Ryder
Member
As an archaeologist have tangled with dowsing, and distinctly unimpressed…..
Cantclimbtom
Well-known member
I was once asked to dowse across 3 big chunks of farmland by a relative who's a cattle farmer in the outback remote NSW, to look for places to try sinking boreholes. I got several strong indications when the rods suddenly crossed, very weird it really didn't feel like I was doing it, like the rods had a life of their own. They were also repeatable by me in same locations. Same with my son doing it, he got some indications.
However... the farmer had already paid a professional dowser and knew where he'd indicated. The trouble was all 3 of us had indications in 3 different places (same story for each of the 3 sites). It seemed conclusive... dowsing is bull. Sorry dowsing enthusiasts.
However... the farmer had already paid a professional dowser and knew where he'd indicated. The trouble was all 3 of us had indications in 3 different places (same story for each of the 3 sites). It seemed conclusive... dowsing is bull. Sorry dowsing enthusiasts.
TheBitterEnd
Well-known member
Of course there's an XKCD for this
andybrooks
Active member
PeteHall
Moderator
Quick update from today, three teams in, did some digging near the breakthrough point where there is a strong draught in a choked rift. Did some boulder-rolling and route stabilisation in some of the most treacherous areas. Started work on a bypass to the breakthrough to make a better route through (the original breakthrough was already bypassed, we're now bypassing the bypass).
A shorter day than many, with the longest trip being only 10 hours.
A shorter day than many, with the longest trip being only 10 hours.
Tritim230
Well-known member
Redhouse Lane Trip Report. 26.7.25.
Ian Healey, Dan Sandford, Tim Nichols, Dylan Wase
Ian put in a couple of holes at the top of the long boulder slope from forward of Tiff's Treat and 2 more at the bottom (before Easter Island). These are for a future filming trip by Paul with his Wirral zip camera.
Dan and Tim calibrated Disto whilst Big Dyl and Ian went on to the top of Wicked Pitch at the High North side. The plan was for us to dig a new connection through to avoid the hanging boulders of death at the pitch head. This required first sorting the few resting on it above. Eventually we gave the big one a wriggle hoping it would just drop down a bit and wedge rather than going to the bottom of the pitch. It did wedge. Unfortunately you have to now sit on it before stepping down around the corner - it is only wedged on corners of rock and is holding back another ton of smaller boulders that Ian knocked down after. It would all be over very quickly if it did go as you'd also be swept down the pitch.
Once round into the High North Ian tried to make a connection with Dyl to avoid all of this. Unfortunately we were not where we expected it to join. Later we did find a connection and Dyl even managed to get through. For the rest of us it will need lump hammer and chisel to enlarge. This will then avoid the boulders of death.
By this time Dan and Tim had arrived and started surveying. Dyl and Ian had a search around and entered a new rift that it turns out doubles back to the other 'lead' going off at the pitch. This is the one up to the right when you are at the usual descent pitch and looking out. This was both disappointing and useful information as it was the lead that I had next considered rope traversing to. At least it's saved Ian a couple of hours of sketchy rope manoeuvres.
Back at the breakthrough Ian started clearing the rocks at the Stretcher Hole we had started a couple of weeks ago. Just as the others arrived Ian got to the point of opening up a foot square hole at just the right place. Still lots more to do here to make it useable and stable. If we do this work as part of every trip then we could soon have it useable.
Back to surveying, Dan and Tim set off to survey his new connection from the north route to Lhasa Rifts.
Just 2 legs, and we hit a survey station at the original boulder dig through with a nice loop closure
. The actual connection involves a 3m no holds drop, so it's probably not the best route in.
Next to the High North. Quite a bit of time lost working out which way to go in. In the end, we opted for the only physically passable route over the wedged block over the death void.
We concentrated on surveying to the 'end' and tied in the other entrance above the pitch on the opposite side. Dan got a great splay directly across the pitch. Another nice loop closed.
111m surveyed with the new stuff heading north to the east of currently known cave at high level. More still to do. A good draught at the end, but no obvious dig location. This whole area is a maze of interconnecting rifts.
Total trip length 10 hours.
Ian Healey, Dan Sandford, Tim Nichols, Dylan Wase
Ian put in a couple of holes at the top of the long boulder slope from forward of Tiff's Treat and 2 more at the bottom (before Easter Island). These are for a future filming trip by Paul with his Wirral zip camera.
Dan and Tim calibrated Disto whilst Big Dyl and Ian went on to the top of Wicked Pitch at the High North side. The plan was for us to dig a new connection through to avoid the hanging boulders of death at the pitch head. This required first sorting the few resting on it above. Eventually we gave the big one a wriggle hoping it would just drop down a bit and wedge rather than going to the bottom of the pitch. It did wedge. Unfortunately you have to now sit on it before stepping down around the corner - it is only wedged on corners of rock and is holding back another ton of smaller boulders that Ian knocked down after. It would all be over very quickly if it did go as you'd also be swept down the pitch.
Once round into the High North Ian tried to make a connection with Dyl to avoid all of this. Unfortunately we were not where we expected it to join. Later we did find a connection and Dyl even managed to get through. For the rest of us it will need lump hammer and chisel to enlarge. This will then avoid the boulders of death.
By this time Dan and Tim had arrived and started surveying. Dyl and Ian had a search around and entered a new rift that it turns out doubles back to the other 'lead' going off at the pitch. This is the one up to the right when you are at the usual descent pitch and looking out. This was both disappointing and useful information as it was the lead that I had next considered rope traversing to. At least it's saved Ian a couple of hours of sketchy rope manoeuvres.
Back at the breakthrough Ian started clearing the rocks at the Stretcher Hole we had started a couple of weeks ago. Just as the others arrived Ian got to the point of opening up a foot square hole at just the right place. Still lots more to do here to make it useable and stable. If we do this work as part of every trip then we could soon have it useable.
Back to surveying, Dan and Tim set off to survey his new connection from the north route to Lhasa Rifts.
Just 2 legs, and we hit a survey station at the original boulder dig through with a nice loop closure
. The actual connection involves a 3m no holds drop, so it's probably not the best route in.Next to the High North. Quite a bit of time lost working out which way to go in. In the end, we opted for the only physically passable route over the wedged block over the death void.
We concentrated on surveying to the 'end' and tied in the other entrance above the pitch on the opposite side. Dan got a great splay directly across the pitch. Another nice loop closed
.111m surveyed with the new stuff heading north to the east of currently known cave at high level. More still to do. A good draught at the end, but no obvious dig location. This whole area is a maze of interconnecting rifts.
Total trip length 10 hours.
Dan S
Active member
Redhouse trip report: 23/8/25. Joel Foyster, Paddy Wilson and Dan Sandford. The trip plan was to quickly ‘mop up’ surveying High North (about 40-50M to do), then go on re-bolt the streamway pitch, in preparation for an assault on the boulder choke at the end of the stream passage, at a later date.
We started off surveying and reached a 4 way junction. Left was the largest way on, to the right had a couple of split level passages and straight on was down a loose, tight, stony chute. Down the chute first, we found a mid level section, big enough to climb up and peer around a previously missed corner. This turned out to be a rift heading North and big enough to get into, with a good view forward – New passage! We all got through and Paddy headed off, walking into virgin passage. Some nice phreatic passage, in crease limestone, with various cryogenic calcite deposits on the floor. We walked along for about 20-30M, getting quite excited about heading North, into a big area of blank limestone, following a draught. However, we hit a fault and the passages split and closed down in size. Paddy went one way and dug through to some crawling passage, with a few squeezes. We also enlarged another squeeze and sent Joel in to explore. More tight, crawly stuff, but with good dig options. We didn’t bring the tools with us, but there are some quick wins to be had digging out dry mud floors. If it will get any bigger though is anyone’s guess! We surveyed all the new section – just over 100M, but realised we had run out of time to finish the rest of High North, let alone time to re-bolt the streamway pitch.
We got back to the 4 way junction and had a quick look to the west, which was the largest way. We found another route into the new stuff, through a rock pile. We suspected this would happen as we got to the underside of the rock pile from the ‘new’ side. Not been through yet – Just needs some more rocks to be cleared and it will be an easier way in, to avoid the tight ‘stone chute’.
Paddy and myself returned to the pitch, via the tight rift and the precarious rock, hanging over the pitch. Joel went to see if he could get through the crawling connection, that Dylan had previously got through. He did, without any issues, so next time this should be the main route, but would still benefit from a bit of enlarging for normal sized people.
So, Redhouse keeps getting bigger – maybe not at the previous rate, but still lots to be found!
We started off surveying and reached a 4 way junction. Left was the largest way on, to the right had a couple of split level passages and straight on was down a loose, tight, stony chute. Down the chute first, we found a mid level section, big enough to climb up and peer around a previously missed corner. This turned out to be a rift heading North and big enough to get into, with a good view forward – New passage! We all got through and Paddy headed off, walking into virgin passage. Some nice phreatic passage, in crease limestone, with various cryogenic calcite deposits on the floor. We walked along for about 20-30M, getting quite excited about heading North, into a big area of blank limestone, following a draught. However, we hit a fault and the passages split and closed down in size. Paddy went one way and dug through to some crawling passage, with a few squeezes. We also enlarged another squeeze and sent Joel in to explore. More tight, crawly stuff, but with good dig options. We didn’t bring the tools with us, but there are some quick wins to be had digging out dry mud floors. If it will get any bigger though is anyone’s guess! We surveyed all the new section – just over 100M, but realised we had run out of time to finish the rest of High North, let alone time to re-bolt the streamway pitch.
We got back to the 4 way junction and had a quick look to the west, which was the largest way. We found another route into the new stuff, through a rock pile. We suspected this would happen as we got to the underside of the rock pile from the ‘new’ side. Not been through yet – Just needs some more rocks to be cleared and it will be an easier way in, to avoid the tight ‘stone chute’.
Paddy and myself returned to the pitch, via the tight rift and the precarious rock, hanging over the pitch. Joel went to see if he could get through the crawling connection, that Dylan had previously got through. He did, without any issues, so next time this should be the main route, but would still benefit from a bit of enlarging for normal sized people.
So, Redhouse keeps getting bigger – maybe not at the previous rate, but still lots to be found!
Vkocher
Member
It was an amazing presentation at HE! It was exciting to see all the footage and it is clear how much consideration has gone into its conservation.
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