Responsibilities
- Thread starter caving_fox
- Start date
AlexR
Well-known member
I really think those seeing this as a thin end of the wedge ruling are either making a bad faith argument or overstating the implications, for the UK in particular.
Disclaimer: I have lived in the UK and Germany but am not a legal professional, nor do I have any form of training in that area. I have read enough articles on the incident and ruling to consider myself well informed, but obviously not nearly as well as the judge or anyone who has access to the 100 page + report compiled for the case by experts in mountain rescue, IT (analysis of sport watch and telephone data), mountain guides, etc.
For anyone unaware, Englands legal system is based on common law, i.e. legal precedent/ past rulings. Austria, like Germany, has civil law, i.e. a codified system. Due to this I think English and American observers put more emphasis on individual rulings than Austrians or Germans would.
Secondly, even if the law systems were comparable, I fail to see how a ruling in another country would affect the dynamics of a group going caving in the UK.
Thirdly, the accused actions in this case were highly immoral. The equivalent in caving wouldn’t be having a less experienced member of the party sustain an injury because the trip was a bit much for them or the natural hazard present in caves.
The equivalent is you taking your partner on a Black book trip, allowing her to proceed wearing a bicycle helmet, a temu headtorch and prussik knots for ascending. Then when she’s completely exhausted half way back out on the ropes, hypothermic from
cold water, you leave her there without putting her in the bothy bag she has on her, get out the cave, and don’t call cave rescue until the day after when you’re wondering where she is.
Not exactly a perfect analogy but better than this ‘any experienced caver taking others underground is half way to prison’ nonsense.
Disclaimer: I have lived in the UK and Germany but am not a legal professional, nor do I have any form of training in that area. I have read enough articles on the incident and ruling to consider myself well informed, but obviously not nearly as well as the judge or anyone who has access to the 100 page + report compiled for the case by experts in mountain rescue, IT (analysis of sport watch and telephone data), mountain guides, etc.
For anyone unaware, Englands legal system is based on common law, i.e. legal precedent/ past rulings. Austria, like Germany, has civil law, i.e. a codified system. Due to this I think English and American observers put more emphasis on individual rulings than Austrians or Germans would.
Secondly, even if the law systems were comparable, I fail to see how a ruling in another country would affect the dynamics of a group going caving in the UK.
Thirdly, the accused actions in this case were highly immoral. The equivalent in caving wouldn’t be having a less experienced member of the party sustain an injury because the trip was a bit much for them or the natural hazard present in caves.
The equivalent is you taking your partner on a Black book trip, allowing her to proceed wearing a bicycle helmet, a temu headtorch and prussik knots for ascending. Then when she’s completely exhausted half way back out on the ropes, hypothermic from
cold water, you leave her there without putting her in the bothy bag she has on her, get out the cave, and don’t call cave rescue until the day after when you’re wondering where she is.
Not exactly a perfect analogy but better than this ‘any experienced caver taking others underground is half way to prison’ nonsense.
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