Right to roam

ChrisJC

ChrisJC

Well-known member
Interesting. And perhaps will be of benefit to cavers! However, I feel there are bigger issues that require addressing.

Chris.
 
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ChrisB

Active member
There doesn't seem to be a right to roam in Northern Ireland
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Nor Wales. I'm assuming it's something the UK Government delegates to the constituent nations, which for England means itself. The Welsh Government was considering some changes, perhaps part way towards the Scottish model. As I remember it, there was a consultation, and I think an official report, but it seems the politicians got cold feet and shelved it.
 
Bob Mehew

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
ChrisB said:
Nor Wales. I'm assuming it's something the UK Government delegates to the constituent nations, which for England means itself. The Welsh Government was considering some changes, perhaps part way towards the Scottish model. As I remember it, there was a consultation, and I think an official report, but it seems the politicians got cold feet and shelved it.
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The CRoW Act covers both England and Wales, but the right to amend the Act as it applies in Wales was given to the Welsh Assembly. The Welsh Government did hold a consultation and are now processing the feedback with a view to deciding on what amendments to make. The Welsh Government explicitly stated that they would not consider caving in that process. So there is a 'right to roam' of sorts in Wales.

I understand that the Northern Ireland situation is right of access is only available to publicly owned land and public rights of way.
 
aricooperdavis

aricooperdavis

Moderator
Bob Mehew said:
If you read the debate, then there is a passing reference to caving by the Labour Party’s shadow environment minister, Alex Sobel, when he cites the Glover report.
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The quote (which quotes the Glover report) is:

National parks were created in part to provide a healing space, both mentally and physically, for the many who had given so much to protect our country during the second world war. They were meant for everybody. The Glover review recognised that, stating that

“it feels wrong that many parts of our most beautiful places are off-limits to horse riders, water users, cavers, wild campers and so on. We hope that”—

the Government—

“will look seriously at whether the levels of open access we have in our most special places are adequate.”

It is perhaps unsurprising that the Government failed to address the adequacy of open access rights in their lacklustre response to the Glover review when their interests so closely align with those seeking to prevent it.
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The whole transcription is available here: https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commo...C-43E5-8026-8F4EC4EC60CA/PublicAccessToNature
 
Badlad

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
I'm sure rights of access will be way down the list for any new government. However, it is the sort of thing Labour do and amongst a load of bad news it might cheer some people up a bit - if they form the next government. Labour did establish the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act and the CRoW Act without which we'd all be worse off I reckon.

I think it significant for caving access that Alex Sobel used that quote from Glover, and significant it is in there in the first place. Hats off to David Rose who met with Glover and explained the situation with caving and rights of access. There is a good chance the effort will pay a dividend as reports such as Glover's do play a part in drafting new legislation. I hope so anyway.
 
ChrisJC

ChrisJC

Well-known member
Hypothetically speaking, let's say you owned a piece of CRoW access land with a cave on it, and you didn't want cavers using it 'for free'. What is to stop the landowner simply adding a locked gate to the cave and charging for the key?
Or a small building with a locked door?

I am just wondering about unintended consequences to a well meaning piece of legislation... (as usually happens!)

Chris.
 
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ChrisB

Active member
What is to stop the landowner simply adding a locked gate to the cave and charging for the key?
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If, as is the hope, the law will specifically state that caves are part of access land, that would be the same as the landowner blocking access to another part of the access land.
 
Badlad

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
If the CRoW Act, as it stands, included caving without doubt, then your landowner would be acting illegally. However, there are provisions within the Act that would allow him to restrict access should he be able to justify it. This is usually done on conservation or safety grounds, but also to allow shooting and such like. There is a short section of the Ingleton Waterfalls Walk which is on CRoW access land but you still have to pay the fee to walk across it. This formal restriction on open access is given for historical reasons and is rare.

In short, public access to land designated under the CRoW Act can only be restricted with very good reason. New legislation or amendments may take a different approach of course.
 
F

Fjell

Well-known member
I was doing a walk in Ireland a few days ago in a national park and the huge sign at the start of the path was “ABSOLUTELY NO DOGS”. And therein lies one of the big problems with giving access to all farmland. Are you also going to give access to dogs? Because that is a problem, and indeed a large section of the population think the only purpose of the countryside is having somewhere to take your dog for a shit, and possibly get some exercise chasing herbivores.
 
aricooperdavis

aricooperdavis

Moderator
Dog fouling is illegal, as is allowing them to worry livestock. It seems a shame to ban dogs from public spaces because of the illegal behavior of some dog owners. That would be like banning people because some of them litter.
 
2xw

2xw

Active member
Worth noting crow act requires dogs to be on ≤2m lead from March to July. BMC has a good article on it
 
M

mikem

Well-known member
Same in t'dales (with reference to dogs & link to national access map):

Open access : Yorkshire Dales National Park

Things to see and do, stories, advice, and information from the Yorkshire Dales National Park Authority
www.yorkshiredales.org.uk www.yorkshiredales.org.uk

Liability worries also tend to discourage owners from charging for caves, hence the more usual trespass fees for crossing their land.
 
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ChrisB

Active member
Dog fouling is illegal, as is allowing them to worry livestock. It seems a shame to ban dogs from public spaces because of the illegal behavior of some dog owners. That would be like banning people because some of them litter.
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I agree. But the Loch Lomond and Trossachs National Park don't, they banned camping in many areas where it was allowed under the Land Reform Act because some campers were leaving litter and doing criminal damage. The answer should be education and culture change, not creating more law (byelaw) because the existing law can't be enforced, which only affects the law-abiding.
 
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