Rowter lid

[MarkS]

I was going to email DCA about this but the email option on the website just directs me to wordpress@example.com, which presumably isn't right. Hopefully someone from DCA picks it up here.

On Saturday a couple of us got temporarily trapped at the top of the entrance shaft as the catch had been turned to latch the grill down. We were extremely fortunate that a) the catch had only been partly rotated over the lid and b) we had a lump hammer with us. Much to our relief, several speculative smacks with the hammer freed the lid.

We were in no doubt that someone had put the catch in place whilst we were underground: due to the grill being slightly bent it is completely impossible to engage the catch at all without the full weight of a person on the grill. I hope it was a curious walker not really thinking after a quick look down the shaft rather than anything malicious, but it does beg the question why there is a catch there at all? There is no risk to livestock thanks to the (superbly redone) fencing and the weight of the lid, but the catch does nothing to keep people from opening the lid since it requires no tools. The more I think about it, the only function it seems to be able to serve is to trap cavers inside!

Can the catch be removed, or is there something we've missed about its purpose?

 

[Badlad]

How was the trip otherwise?

 

[MarkS]

How was the trip otherwise?

Great, thanks - trip report to follow at some point.

 

[Mark Wright]

I was just about to ask the same question as Badlad.

If I'd been temporarily trapped in there the catch would already have been removed.

 

[pwhole]

I've never been involved with any Rowter work, but I assume the lid has a catch at the request of the landowner - unsure. This incident is a bit odd though, as none of that land is public access, so there shouldn't be any walkers up there at all to flip the catch - though I accept folks do jump over walls occasionally. I would have thought that anyone seeing the ropes rigged would assume someone was below, but as we've seen elsewhere, you can't rely on common sense. Hopefully more folks will see this later and comment - don't see why it can't be removed if the landowner is OK with it.

 

[MarkS]

If I'd been temporarily trapped in there the catch would already have been removed.

It might well have been if we'd had a spanner with us!

 

[MarkS]

This incident is a bit odd though, as none of that land is public access, so there shouldn't be any walkers up there at all to flip the catch - though I accept folks do jump over walls occasionally. I would have thought that anyone seeing the ropes rigged would assume someone was below, but as we've seen elsewhere, you can't rely on common sense.

I totally agree. But we had a good look once we were out and there is absolutely no way the catch can engage without a lot of weight on the lid, so not a chance it could happen without someone doing it. The rope had also moved across to one end of the scaffold bar rather than in the middle where we'd rigged it, and I don't think that could happen by accident either.

 

[pwhole]

Scary then. I'll email the DCA officers and have a chat about what to do - it's only a five-minute job if Mark is OK with it.

 

[AR]

If it's an external catch, like the ones on the Hillocks climber, then I'd agree they need replacing - internal handled catches that you open with a spanner on the outside bolt head (like the ones on the the Wardlow Sough door) are a much better design. Replacing the Hillocks ones was on my to-do list before covid, I think I need to bump it up the priority list somewhat by the sounds of this incident!

 

[mikem]

Sounds more like a farm worker thinking it's been left open - may have shouted down & got no reply, not knowing how far it extends.

 

[Badlad]

I'm sure there will be a reason for the catch - maybe just the whim of the installer. Surely if the landowner did indeed insist on a catch then the obvious danger of cavers becoming trapped should be pointed out. A different solution avoiding entrapment should be sorted that satisfies all parties.

Maybe there is a new craze afoot. Trapping cavers in caves! To some perhaps as much fun as cow tipping, bale rolling, vandalising bus stops etc

 

[pwhole]

internal handled catches that you open with a spanner on the outside bolt head (like the ones on the the Wardlow Sough door) are a much better design

The one on Longcliffe uses this design too, so you can lock it from below as you descend, but only you can open it again from below without a spanner.

 

[pwhole]

Sounds more like a farm worker thinking it's been left open - may have shouted down & got no reply, not knowing how far it extends.

It's unlikely - the farm are very caver-friendly, and the Rowter diggers have been going there for years and know them well, so that just doesn't add up.

 

[Pete K]

The email link on the website header has been fixed now, thanks for pointing it out Mark and sorry that you got stuck in Rowter.
I'm not aware of any reason the lid needs to be locked in this way, but it's not one of my past projects. If the latch is removed and we get any contact from Mark at the farm then we can put something back in place, but I doubt it'll get noticed. Like you say, it is ineffective as a safety measure. Make it vanish or convert it to an inside handle.
It'll have been curious members of the public I bet. Rights of Way are meaningless for anyone using Google Maps for navigating.

 

[A_Northerner]

I've PM'd Mark the details of how this happened. Safe to say it was an honest mistake that most people would have made - a group visited the far reaches of Rowter without encountering Mark, concluded that the shaft rope was a new addition to the diggers' hard-rigging and closed the lid behind them.

Given how easy it was for a well-meaning group to make this mistake, I think it's probably for the best that the catch be removed as others have said already.

 

[mikem]

Or make it openable from inside - depends which is easier (seized bolts?). Other cavers was always more likely than public

 

[A_Northerner]

Openable from the inside would be best, I agree

 

[pwhole]

Only problem with this idea (a good one, BTW), is that a latch openable from the inside would need a retaining slot manufacturing somewhere in the current system. The Longcliffe lid was a complete brand-new unit, so we were able to build that in, but retro-fitting a latching system into a much smaller aperture (with a lid on top of that) will be more tricky I suspect. If a good clean slot could be cut into the concrete surround it might work, but the risk of fracturing it would be pretty high I would have thought, especially if it's weathered. If not in the cutting, it would probably go after a few months regular use, so a steel-based slot would be preferable.

One other thing to bear in mind is that stiff latches need a firm footing to operate from below, and as Rowter shaft is wider beneath, the leverage required whilst hanging on a rope is considerable, and not everyone will think to bring etriers or similar to stand in. So whatever method us used it must be guaranteed to open for everyone. We have had a situation where a tiny person went out of Longcliffe first and couldn't open the lid, forcing someone bigger to prussick up to sort it out, which is not ideal at a deep shaft-top.

 

[MarkS]

If there is no compelling case for a latch to be there, I would have thought it's best to just remove it. My guess is that the latch has served no purpose in the years it has been there. Removal would be the quickest, simplest and cheapest solution with no downsides that I can see.

 

[BikinGlynn]

If you are there with permission maybe leave some sort of marker indicating cavers are inside?
Though admittedly this may give some cretins more reason to secure the latch