Safest descender for caving?
- Thread starter Masabust
- Start date
I've never seen anyone use one in a cave
The only items of climbing gear I use caving are krabs and slings. I carry an prussik loop for emergencies.
In general, I've found that when I take up a different sport, I have lots of ideas about how to improve the gear based on experience elsewhere, and then I end up realising that what the experienced people use is best.
Rikaaay1
Member
Exactly this
paul
Moderator
Not all - some cave using similar techniques as in Europe.
zzzzzzed
Active member
If I'm doing a pull through, like Simpsons Pot in the Dales, with climbing friends I prefer to use a Petzl Reverso 2, which is made of chunky metal and doesn't get trashed in caves. The advantage is that you can abseil on double ropes.
If I am doing Simpsons with caving friends I use a Simple - it's not worth the effort of explaining why I prefer an ATC type device for pull throughs. In neither case would I use prussik backup.
When abseiling in the Alps I use a Petzl Reverso 4 and always use a prussik backup. It's a frequent occurance in the Alps that the rope gets stuck on ledges, you need to use both hands to sort it out and, sometimes undo tangles.
It's horses for courses.
If I am doing Simpsons with caving friends I use a Simple - it's not worth the effort of explaining why I prefer an ATC type device for pull throughs. In neither case would I use prussik backup.
When abseiling in the Alps I use a Petzl Reverso 4 and always use a prussik backup. It's a frequent occurance in the Alps that the rope gets stuck on ledges, you need to use both hands to sort it out and, sometimes undo tangles.
It's horses for courses.
zzzzzzed
Active member
Because when I'm with climbers they tend to be using ATCs as well so we can all abseil on double ropes (remember I'm only talking about pull throughs here).
Cavers can't abseil on double ropes. Plus, as mikem said, I don't have listen to the lectures about using 'inappropriate gear'.
I prefer using the Perzl Reverso 2 in caves but I wouldn't use one all the time because of the risk of dropping it.
Cantclimbtom
Well-known member
The Reverso (I have the ATC which is the same without the guide mode but, like a Petzl Verso) is excellent for that as it bends the rope 180 and 180 back degrees in the same plane (unlike Grigri, I'D, etc) so doesn't twist the ropes. Perfect for abseil on a pull through.
With the ATC you can also use it the "wrong" way round so the rope enters past what's normally dead-rope groves/ribs without interacting with them, and out past the smooth what's normally live-rope side of it. Good if you want less friction for some twin rope abseil. But even climbers will start "correcting" you if they see it and you'll find yourself explaining
how it's used.
There's little from climbing and mountaineering that could be adopted by caving as while they're superficially similar, they're optimised for such different conditions but there may be a few minor things that could travel in either direction.
A "trick" from climbing I've put to use underground, is to have a prusik loop (pre sewn) so if there's a ladder and a in situ safety rope, example: Daren Cilau, you can put a french prusik ("autoblock") over both strands of the rope on a long cows tail and protect yourself if a solo trip. A bit niche.
The only thing I wonder about caving culture is why cavers never adopted wiregate carabiners with much enthusiasm, they're easier to clean!
zzzzzzed: "Cavers can't abseil on double ropes" yes they can but only with an Italian ("munter") hitch. Just please don't do that with my ropes and make them twisty.
With the ATC you can also use it the "wrong" way round so the rope enters past what's normally dead-rope groves/ribs without interacting with them, and out past the smooth what's normally live-rope side of it. Good if you want less friction for some twin rope abseil. But even climbers will start "correcting" you if they see it and you'll find yourself explaining
how it's used.There's little from climbing and mountaineering that could be adopted by caving as while they're superficially similar, they're optimised for such different conditions but there may be a few minor things that could travel in either direction.
A "trick" from climbing I've put to use underground, is to have a prusik loop (pre sewn) so if there's a ladder and a in situ safety rope, example: Daren Cilau, you can put a french prusik ("autoblock") over both strands of the rope on a long cows tail and protect yourself if a solo trip. A bit niche.
The only thing I wonder about caving culture is why cavers never adopted wiregate carabiners with much enthusiasm, they're easier to clean!
zzzzzzed: "Cavers can't abseil on double ropes" yes they can but only with an Italian ("munter") hitch. Just please don't do that with my ropes and make them twisty.
paul
Moderator
I used to abseil on double ropes using a rack - the rest of the time I used a Petzl Simple for abseiling underground, and still do.
Rikaaay1
Member
Worth mentioning there are methods to be able to abb with double ropes on a device such as a simple or stop. My preferred method for this is on one half of the rope near the pull through, make a clove hitch a carabiner to the rope. Then clip the caribinner to the rope at the other side of the pull through. This allows a bing on one half of the rope, and when you get to the bottom, you can pull the other half and the rope just pulls through the caribinner.
Chris Curry
Active member
What you describe (although not usually with a clove hitch) is the standard caving method of performing a pull-through, and is what @zzzzzzed refers to when he describes abseiling with a simple with caver friends. I believe when @zzzzzzed refers to 'double ropes' he means the opposite of this, running the rope through/around the anchor and abseiling on both halves of the rope at once, which is not usual practice in the caving community but works perfectly well.
JAshley73
Active member
Yes and no.
For big surface pits, we'll often use IRT - Indestructible Rope Technique. Tie a big ass rope around a big ass tree, and slide on down. Racks work best & beautifully on these big stiff ropes. And since they're mostly single-pitch, there's little worry about navigating obstacles. The rack was invented specifically for this type of deep, single pitch, surface pit.
For multi-pitch caves, some folks here opt for bobbins. (I don't love the idea of dragging my 14" rack through tight crawls.)
Bobbins are also becoming popular with the younger crowd. I think part of this, is from exploration deeper into caves. The deeper you go, the more challenges you come to. The more technical the rigging. The less fun it is to drag big 12mm ropes deep into the cave. So 9mm rope is gaining popularity for this reason, and that works well with bobbins.
Of course, U-frame "micro racks" work well in most all scenarios. I see one in my future pretty soon.
riccardoprandini01
New member
Here in Italy, we use bobbin descenders such as the ones made by Petzl or CT. The two are quite different in terms of material quality, but that’s another discussion.
Bobbin descenders require two main points of attention: using a suitable carabiner to connect it to the maillon on the harness, and properly positioning the braking carabiner.
Let’s start with the materials: steel is preferred for both carabiners.
The carabiner must have a good shape; otherwise, it tends to misalign — especially with the Petzl, but also with the CT.
The braking carabiner should preferably be attached directly to the descender’s carabiner to avoid unpleasant issues (such as the descender getting stuck inside the braking carabiner).
The STOP, meaning the self-locking bobbin descender, is basically banned — especially in activities involving non-expert cavers — because there have been incidents of people fainting and hanging suspended, or of levers becoming unmanageable in very narrow shafts where the descender got used on the lanyard.
There are also many ongoing discussions about braking carabiners, from the Petzl Freino to the Raumer Handy.
In very long caves, I have personally tested the advantages of the rack, but in my opinion, it requires much more skill and manual technique to use properly.
Other systems aren’t commonly used because they cause excessive wear on the equipment or are difficult to control when ropes are dirty or muddy.
In any case, all these systems must be used with proper knowledge — depending on where you go. For example, in central Italy, where the ropes often contain marble dust, some people have custom-made steel pulleys to handle the abrasion.
Personally, I use a CT descender with an old CAMP D-shaped aluminum carabiner in the dedicated hole, which I replace roughly every three years. On my maillon, I also keep a Raumer Handy ring that I carry with me.
Bobbin descenders require two main points of attention: using a suitable carabiner to connect it to the maillon on the harness, and properly positioning the braking carabiner.
Let’s start with the materials: steel is preferred for both carabiners.
The carabiner must have a good shape; otherwise, it tends to misalign — especially with the Petzl, but also with the CT.
The braking carabiner should preferably be attached directly to the descender’s carabiner to avoid unpleasant issues (such as the descender getting stuck inside the braking carabiner).
The STOP, meaning the self-locking bobbin descender, is basically banned — especially in activities involving non-expert cavers — because there have been incidents of people fainting and hanging suspended, or of levers becoming unmanageable in very narrow shafts where the descender got used on the lanyard.
There are also many ongoing discussions about braking carabiners, from the Petzl Freino to the Raumer Handy.
In very long caves, I have personally tested the advantages of the rack, but in my opinion, it requires much more skill and manual technique to use properly.
Other systems aren’t commonly used because they cause excessive wear on the equipment or are difficult to control when ropes are dirty or muddy.
In any case, all these systems must be used with proper knowledge — depending on where you go. For example, in central Italy, where the ropes often contain marble dust, some people have custom-made steel pulleys to handle the abrasion.
Personally, I use a CT descender with an old CAMP D-shaped aluminum carabiner in the dedicated hole, which I replace roughly every three years. On my maillon, I also keep a Raumer Handy ring that I carry with me.
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