Sell Gill Holes

[Frog]

Am I a glutton for punishment or what!!!
Went to Sell Gill today with Mr Fell to practice my rigging skills.
I still have my bruises from Jingling Pot on Thursday.
Once again I was in a state of collapse when we reached the caves but quickly recovered while Mr Fell rigged the first short pitch of the fossil route into the daylight chamber.
Now it was my turn.
With some close supervision I rigged the traverse to the head of the second pitch. It was a test of my nerves leaning on my cowstails (not quite used to doing this yet) but I survived and tied some impressive knots (impressed me anyway)!
Mr Fell provided me with a rope sling to rig the deviation and I descended to the bottom praying my knots were tied correctly.
Mr Fell now demonstrated the art of tying a figure 8 on the bight and I practiced this on the next short section and descended to stand on the edge over the next pitch. Here was a good opportunity to test my nerves of steel again as I had to lean out to reach the last hanger. Good job I have long arms!
Now the entertainment began with me dithering on the edge.
'Im going to crash into the wall arent I?' I asked. A nod of the head confirmed my fears!
Nerves of steel turned to nerves of jelly as I dithered a bit longer and cursed quietly. Ok so it wasnt very quiet!
Here the long legs came into use and I managed to brace against the walls and lower myself quite gracefully onto the rope.
More gracefully than Mr Fell did it haha.
Once at the bottom we went and had a look at Goblin shaft which was roaring somewhat and also checked out the main chamber.
We returned to the rope and after a drink of apple juice Mr Fell ascended and I followed with Mr Fell kicking water all over me!
I de-rigged all the way back to the daylight chamber where I was allowed to go up first.
Although my nerves were tested it was an excellent trip and I felt I had achieved something. Just got to remember about angles and making sure my knots are tight and ropes arent slack, etc. etc.
Thanks to Mr Fell for another good trip.
Now, where do I end up next!

 

[mudmonkey]

Has anyone been past the old sump in Sell Gill? Wandered through once years back (it was a relatively dry crawl I think...) to find another pitch and a climb up into some scrotty muddy thing (IIRC) but as we thought it was a sump below Main Chamber, hadn't any pare ropes with us so headed out. What's down the pitch?

 

[phil]

I went down the pitch beyond the 'sump' a few years ago. At the time it was just another chamber with a lot of mud and a few dodgy climbs. I think it was in the process of being blasted at the time....

It seemed quite foreboding at the time! It seemed a lot darker than the rest of the cave and the mud etc. made you quite aware of the amount of water that must back-up

 

[Andy Sparrow]

Figure 8 on the bight or 'rabbit knot' is a very poor substitute for a bowline on a bight. It has no advantages, requires more rope and is considerably more complex and difficult to adjust.

 

[Mr Fell]

Bowline on the bight - IMHO are easy to get wrong - liable to capsize - and moreover I belive for these reasons were largely abandoned by the climbing community some time ago.I used to use them but changed over on advice from several sources.We all have our preferences - mines a figure of eight

 

[andymorgan]

Bowline on the bight - IMHO are easy to get wrong - liable to capsize - and moreover I belive for these reasons were largely abandoned by the climbing community some time ago.I used to use them but changed over on advice from several sources.We all have our preferences - mines a figure of eight

But climbers also believe lycra is fashionable

 

[Brains]

I have been led to understand that the type of knot is immaterial providing it does the job and doesnt come undone at the wrong time! It should be easy to tie, and easy to recognise as tied correctly. The differing strngths of the contenders is also irrelevant given the qualities of modern ropes. If you think it is a factor perhaps you need to reconsider the rigging. The ease of undoing a knot should also be noted. Fig 8's are easy to tie and recognise but can be a bitch to undo after loading. Bowlines are also easy to tie but less easy to recognise, and easy to undo. This is I believe why the bowline is not so popular as it might be - a knot in semi static or dynamic can be shaken undone. Scary to watch and do. My personnel preference? cavers butterfly for most with bowline for backups and fig8 for some applications, oh yes and reef knots, grannys and simple bows for some things as well. Your choice. Learn. Practice. Recognise. Question. And enjoy... silk dressing gown cord with quick release bows.....

 

[Andy Sparrow]

Bowline on the bight - IMHO are easy to get wrong - liable to capsize - and moreover I belive for these reasons were largely abandoned by the climbing community some time ago.I used to use them but changed over on advice from several sources.We all have our preferences - mines a figure of eight

Bowline on the bight is more difficult to tie and this, in my opinion, is the main reason that cavers use the fig 8 alternative. I am not aware that the knot is liable to 'capsize'. I don't think the climbing community has ever made much use of either knot, and as for 'sources' there is always a lot of folklore doing the rounds in the caving world which has very little factual base. You will find that caving instructors almost universally use the bowline on the bight. Having said all this either knot is perfectly safe and this not an issue that warrants prolonged discussion.

 

[Stu]

Start a new war on a new site guys! The fella described a really personal piece. Let's not detract from that... yes, you were, because it became something else.

Well done Frog. It's a major achievement getting into the rigging. You'll get used to hanging in your cowstails... you big pussy!!

 

[Frog]

hey stu you cant insult me calling me a pussy.
im a female frog haha so im allowed to be!
im really enjoying the rigging as its an achievement when i dont end up in a heap at the bottom of a pitch!

andy, i actually found the bowline on the bight very easy to tie as i hope you recall i got it right every time on the course!
however i did manage to get it wrong on sunday first attempt. dont know how!
mr fell showed me the figure 8 on the bight which i also found easy to tie.
im just chuffed i can now tie 5 knots instead of 4.
i am too inexperienced to express a preference so i will practice both and see which i end up favouring.
as for undoing them that is an artform i am still trying to master!

 

[Stu]

hey stu you cant insult me calling me a pussy.
im a female frog haha so im allowed to be!
im really enjoying the rigging as its an achievement when i dont end up in a heap at the bottom of a pitch!

andy, i actually found the bowline on the bight very easy to tie as i hope you recall i got it right every time on the course!
however i did manage to get it wrong on sunday first attempt. dont know how!
mr fell showed me the figure 8 on the bight which i also found easy to tie.
im just chuffed i can now tie 5 knots instead of 4.
i am too inexperienced to express a preference so i will practice both and see which i end up favouring.
as for undoing them that is an artform i am still trying to master!

Bugger!!!

 

[Frog]

haha never mind stu.
forgot to say i really dont mind andy and mr fell debating about the knots as they have both taught me so much and have looked after me underground.
they are both very good at what they do but i guess its inevitable that there will be different opinions on certain things.
anyway at least it shows people are reading the drivel that i write

 

[Stu]

haha never mind stu.
forgot to say i really dont mind andy and mr fell debating about the knots as they have both taught me so much and have looked after me underground.
they are both very good at what they do but i guess its inevitable that there will be different opinions on certain things.
anyway at least it shows people are reading the drivel that i write

Good good. For what it's worth IMHO learn every knot you can and learn them well. Practice practice practice until you can do them in your sleep. Then practice them some more. That way you'll always have something to turn to. By knowing the strengths and limitations you'll be able to make an informed choice. No one knot is perfect so any opinion on any one knot could and will be easily argued against... as you saw!

 

[Billy Butcombe]

"Figures of Eight Figures of Eight" says the parrot on Billy Butcombe`s shoulder - "bowlines are crap"

 

[Mr Fell]

Vindication !!!!!

 

[Wolfart]

with Mr Fell kicking water all over me!
TUT TUT MR Fell!

 

[Mr Fell]

It was accidental !!!!!

 

[Rachel]

It was accidental !!!!!

That'll happen at your age

 

[Mr Fell]

Aaargh !

 

[Billy Butcombe]

Nowhere to hide Mr Fell :twisted: