Serious damage in Giants Hole

[Alex]

At the very least we should name and shame those who had done it.

 

[cap n chris]

When naming and shaming be careful not to overlook

...reasonable doubt...

Chances are that it was them but it might not have been.

 

[Daz_of_caving]

is this connected to the damage at all....

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,1988.msg18599.html#msg18599

Daz

EDIT: Sorry thought that said 2009 not 2006  :spank:

 

[blakey]

I believe the damage was done before the 16th March. I was on a level 1 caving core skills assessment with Dave Baines on that date. We went up to the grotto to have a look and discuss speliothems. I dont know if its old damage we saw but I remember it being quite significant. It is probably best speaking to him as he knows the area better than i do. I hope the culprits are found!!

 

[cap n chris]

Don't hold your breath over finding the culprits and successfully prosecuting them. Even if you know what they look like, what their names are, where they live, when they were in the cave, what route they took, the precise nature of the damage done (and can prove that the two events coincide), and have reliable multiple witnesses who are prepared to stand up in court to testify, the case will most likely still not get anywhere, as previous experience has shown. Yes, (some) caves are protected by law but that's as far as it goes, sadly, with the law not been enforced. All rather risible, really. Makes you wonder about a whole bunch of other legislation, too.

 

[Steve_Woods]

It makes you wonder why you bother. What's the point of an SSSI if you can for all intents carry on with impunity?

As you state earlier it's still important to make the effort (fundamental principles involved here) even if the justice system can't get a conviction.

 

[paul]

Although it may be true that a successful prosecution may be unlikely, perhaps it is best not to point this out publicly as it may lead to further damage in caves if the culprits and others of their ilk believe they will can get away with it...

 

[Sid Weighells Dog]

The CPS may not be willing to take a prosecution but is there any reason why a prosecution can't be brought privately? Any caving solicitors on here willing to do some pro bono speleo work?

 

[Ian Adams]

It seems strange that the desire to prosecute for ?cave vandalism? is so varied across the country.

I assume ?Natural England? were the Government body responsible for imposing the SSSI ?  (I ask because I don?t know).

In North Wales we have the CCW - Countryside Council for Wales (Government appointed body) who have a mandate for SSSI scheduling and they have their own police sergeant who investigates such complaints. In a case last year, two diggers (brothers) who had been digging a cave for somewhere between 10 and 15 years were robustly pursued by the CCW after the CCW scheduled the cave SSSI around 5 years ago. The brothers were not aware of the presence of the scheduling (which is presumably no defence) and continued digging occasionally.

It appears there is a wide scope for interpretation as to what is (and is not) serious enough to prosecute for.

:-\

Ian

 

[cap n chris]

Without going into details, there are other instances of cavers falling foul of the legislation, rather than vandals, for the "crime" of digging (in good faith and without any malice!).

Seems odd, really, though. And ironic.

 

[peterk]

I believe that for there to be a chance of the CPS prosecuting in this case of vandalism they would have to be persuaded that there was irrefutable evidence that between the last time the formations were known to be intact and the discovery of the vandalism the accused were the only persons(?) to have visited the scene.  Even possession of bits of stal that could be identified could be "explained" as "yes we visited but we found these bits next to where we parked the car". 

Re the N Wales intended prosecutiion.  In England AFAIK the landowner is notified when an SSSI is "created" and what operations are prohibited so provided the diggers were not told of the designation by the landowner then there could well be a case against the landowner.  I'm just posting an opinion and not trying to start another "access war" so please keep any comment general and hypothetical examples that do not relate to current issues

(if anyone is going to do any legal googling then add the Companies Act 2006 and the removal of requirements to hold AGM's and they could maybe kill another thread)

 

[khakipuce]

...
I assume ?Natural England? were the Government body responsible for imposing the SSSI ?  (I ask because I don?t know).
...

Yes Natural England adminster SSSIs in England and I believe are the body that would instigate a prosecution. With reagrd to the variablilty, as others have pointed out it is probably more about evidence that lack of will on behalf of NE. It also depends on what the SSSI designation includes.

 

[cap n chris]

provided the diggers were not told of the designation by the landowner then there could well be a case against the landowner.

Indeed.

This recalls a scenario which went along these lines:

C&A are approached by NE to help with a SSSI issue and discovers a group are digging a registered SSSI (entirely unwittingly) and are suspected by NE of being engaged in PDO(s); caver notifies diggers of situation but is also tipped off by NE that the diggers should have been notified by the "all-knowledgeable-about-SSSI-designation" landowner (who is the one in the frame for prosecution, please note!); diggers find out that landowner was also genuinely unaware of the SSSI/digging problem. Subsequent diplomatic spasm required to keep landowner in the clear, thus meaning other SSSI-and-non-SSSI-owning landowners didn't engage in a blanket ban on all digging activities "just to be on the safe side".

Carve up? Betcha. Glad I'm not C&A any more.

 

[Pete K]

Bit of car crash viewing but I think it is important to keep this in the front of our minds. Can we ask around and get some idea of when this happened, regardless of what opinion you have on a chance of prosectution. Photos taken by Daryl Godfrey and the Acclimbatize team.

Anyone with experience of repairing stal should drop Daz or Dave Webb a line.

 

[cap n chris]

Based on a fair amount of previous experience repairing stal my initial reaction to seeing this is:

a) Can't be done.
On second thoughts...
b) Might be possible but would require a huge amount of work*, various techniques, and a shed load of patience
c) Unless the cave has access controls the work-in-progress is likely to be tampered with and...
d) Is probably in vain as unless access controls are in place it is just as likely to recur, meaning those involved in (b) will wonder why the fcuk they bothered


* Drilling and pinning the large(r) parts together, supporting them on structures as they fix, with additional wiring possibly necessary to hold them as the fixer sets. Subsequent smoothing and surface work required, too. Any support structures need to be left alone otherwise the work will be in vain. Curtains are a nightmare (if they are heavy) as they cannot be drilled and pinned.

Small stal can be glued quite easily though!

 

[graham]

Stuff that size can be done, certainly, but it does require a lot of careful work.

And as Chris notes, in the final stages - the earlier ones can be done outside the cave - it requires that the support structures cannot be tampered with.

 

[Alex]

and theres me thinking it could be done with a bit of superglue.

 

[cap n chris]

The really small stuff often can be.

 

[j4nny]

I find these images very disturbing. 

What would posses someone to do such a thing  :spank: :chair:

Best wishes to those trying to mend the stal. 

 

[SamT]

Why the f***