Serious damage in Giants Hole

[AndyF]

Lets not forget that cavers did this....this was no casual passer by

 

[nigel n]

The people who did this damage may not have been cavers in the way that most of us understand but it seems unlikely that they had some kind of knowledge that allowed them to find the chamber. It is not necessary to consult a guidebook or experienced caver as it is not difficult to obtain details of the chamber, its attractions or the route to it on line.  Does this mean that other caves not too far away will suffer a similar fate?  It is also obvious that the wet inlets are reasinably well used by instructed parties of one sort or another.  Whilst no-one would deny that bona fide instructors do a good job and are often more conscious of the cave environment than recreational cavers the instructor has no control over his charges once they have left his care.  Giants is easily accessible from large cities and its location is well known to many.  I work occasionally at the visitor centre in Castleton but even so have been asked for the location of the cave on several occasions by youngsters who had enjoyed a visit to the cave.  I can easily see how a group of adventurous youths (even without "proper" equipment) could find the cave and the follow the route up the inlets.Once in the high level passage the chamber itself is easy to find, even if not itself visited previously.  There is no easy answer to this but maybe some groups should not be taken into the cave.

 

[nigel n]

I meant likely not unlikely!

 

[Alex]

It should let you go back and edit your post, well it probbably has been too long. I do think that is a likely scenario too, but if we start not taking certain groups into caves because they "might" be dodgy what does that do to the sport that is caving?

 

[cap n chris]

Seems like Nigel is arguing for Giants, and other caves along with it, to be gated: either that, or for the internet, publishing houses or word-of-mouth to become outlawed.

 

[Northern caver]

Pure speculation but, as the Giants entrance fee box has been targeted by thieves many times during the past couple of years, then it's possible it might be some kind of revenge attack since the last safe was installed. Just a thought.

 

[nigel n]

I dont see any reference in my comments to gating or censorship, merely the suggestion that with freedom comes responsibility.

 

[big-palooka]

The people who did this damage may not have been cavers in the way that most of us understand but it seems unlikely that they had some kind of knowledge that allowed them to find the chamber. It is not necessary to consult a guidebook or experienced caver as it is not difficult to obtain details of the chamber, its attractions or the route to it on line.  Does this mean that other caves not too far away will suffer a similar fate?  It is also obvious that the wet inlets are reasonably well used by instructed parties of one sort or another.  Whilst no-one would deny that bona fide instructors do a good job and are often more conscious of the cave environment than recreational cavers the instructor has no control over his charges once they have left his care.  Giants is easily accessible from large cities and its location is well known to many.  I work occasionally at the visitor centre in Castleton but even so have been asked for the location of the cave on several occasions by youngsters who had enjoyed a visit to the cave.  I can easily see how a group of adventurous youths (even without "proper" equipment) could find the cave and the follow the route up the inlets.Once in the high level passage the chamber itself is easy to find, even if not itself visited previously.  There is no easy answer to this but maybe some groups should not be taken into the cave.

Reading the above whilst currently in New Zealand, this is just what the guys at Auckland Speleo Group were telling me was a question of concern in NZ.

It seems that youngsters introduce to caving through adventure activity centres in NZ, then want to take their friends underground who then take some of their mates, and the care and conservation element becomes detached from the adventure.

The instruction centres use a few 'sacrificial caves' to which the risk of damage is confined  -  and although really special caves are locked and gated,  mostly details of access to and location of other caves is hard to find on the 'net or elsewhere outside of clubs.

Paul C

 

[cap n chris]

Instructors are required to specifically mention conservation as an element of their trips and make a compelling case for treating the fragile cave environment with respect - not the easiest thing to do in an unedifying mud hole.

It is impossible to protect unlocked caves from human interference/damage and it is also a fundamental part of BCA policy to promote caving. Square the circle.

 

[Peter Burgess]

There are some that have the unfortunate trait that when asked to be careful not to break something will go out of their way to do so. This normally manifests itself in the pre-teen years, but some folk never grow up. I wonder if it's in their DNA?

 

[cap n chris]

It's part of human nature, methinks.

 

[Stu]

There is no easy answer to this but maybe some groups should not be taken into the cave.

I think we need to keep our powder dry here folks; it's starting to all sound a bit Daily Mailesque.

The facts are... well we don't have any; aside from smashed stal.

... and yes, this is a forum - for chat. The above statement doesn't sit easy with me though; especially as we haven't a clue how it happened.

 

[cap n chris]

The topic of whether or not a caving leader should have the power of veto over his/her charges being allowed to enter a cave (based on observation of whether they are a bunch of tearaways out to destroy everything and anything and therefore considered to be unsuitable candidates to introduce to caving) is a moot point. A self employed person could say "Sorry, folks but today is cancelled. Go home, you oiks" whereas a contracted instructor working for an outdoor pursuits centre* would be losing their job if they didn't do what they were employed to do. ;-)


* You can easily imagine the jaw-dropping incredulity of management if an instructor came back saying "I pulled the plug on the session because the children were using coarse language and I didn't like their choice of fashion".

 

[Alex]

And the self emplyoed guy would be out of bussinuess soon too I guess. As there is unfortunately not that many who go caving.

Maybe we should just accept Giants as a sacrificial cave like they do in NZ. Or just dont take guided groups to the real pretty bits (This has the issue that they are missing out on one of the things that makes caving attractive as a sport).

 

[jasonbirder]

I know in today's egalitarian times we're not supposed to say this...
BUT, there's "groups" and there's "groups aren't there...
There's private punters who pay to be led underground...there's schools/scouts etc parties who are eager to go underground...and there are groups of people for whom public money is made available to take underground (and indeed Climbing/Canoeing etc) and who MAY have no real interest or appreciation for the outdoor environment...
I'm sure someone will jump all over me for saying it...but some of the latter group (IE youth's with behavioural/drug/crime problems) may not be the best people to take into a sensitive underground environment...

 

[Goydenman]

I think Jasonbirder you may well be jumping to possibly wrong conclusions there. I see where you are coming from and for years I have sought possible explanations of how 'non-cavers' have done these things. But now go back through the examples of damage to formations up and down the country; ropes and ladders being stolen from deep underground; cars broken into where it was strongly suspected people had been caving did it etc etc - I have fought away from admitting the conclusion that 'cavers' i.e. people that go caving often have done these things. Especially ropes and ladders stolen from deep underground it could not be anyone else. Looking for 'non-cavers' who have been taken caving is a nice way of keeping ourselves from admitting that in our midst are cavers in the caving community who are more likley suspects. Kids that are taken caving and into another scene eg drugs and crime do not want to work never mind go to the bother of doing a 'non-cool' thing that required planning/sorting gear like caving.

 

[Mark]

Are you absolutely sure that these formations have been smashed deliberately, there are some almost identical curtains in Hungerhill Swallet which were like that when we found them, no one had ever been in the chamber, so some natural occurrence must have taken place,

Why cant this sort of thing occur in recent times, I cant explain what caused it, but just my two pennerth.

Are there any more photos?

 

[Alex]

What natural event could take down seperate formations like that unless there is a likely boulder lying around that fell from somewhere. I am afraid it is most likely deliberate.

 

[paul]

Mark, I know what you mean. There was quite a lot of broken stal in the new extensions to Water icicle Close Cavern certainly due to natural causes, but the broken edges look very old.

For example

The photos above of broken stal in Giants Hole certailnly look very fresh.

 

[martinm]

What natural event could take down seperate formations like that unless there is a likely boulder lying around that fell from somewhere. I am afraid it is most likely deliberate.

Erm, an earth tremor? We get loads of those, although most are missed by people. I can quote 4 examples from my own main caving area. (Ie: the Manifold area.) And one from another area:-

1. A couple of years ago, we were trying to get back into the 'terminal' chamber of Rabbit's Hole between Wetton Mill and Ecton only to find it no longer existed, cos the roof had collapsed since I was last there in the late 70's.

2. Movement of large slabs of rock a couple of years ago in the entrance series of Waterways Swallet where the first climb down is. (Just before the first solid chamber.) I have been going down there for around 25 years and that was the first time those rocks had moved!

3. When we were enlarging a squeeze at the top of Barn Pot in the floor of Prospect Chamber in Darfar Pot a couple of years ago, we came back a week later to find some massive rocks had collapsed from the roof right above where we had been working. (All looked solid the week before!)

(There had been a large tremor reported in the Manchester area that week, IIRC.)

4. A year or so ago, much of the clay floor between the entrance chamber and main chamber of St. Bertram's cave at Beeston Tor was found to be extensively cracked with sections of the floor able to be rocked back and forth! (It had been solid for the previous 30 years at least!)

There are also masses of cracked and broken stals in the new series of Critchlow cave which had occurred naturally before Pete Mellors and I first entered it in the 1980's...

Is that enough examples?