Serious damage in Giants Hole

I imagine anyone who knew these formations well might be able to tell. Were the bits too widely scattered about? Were there obvious points of concentrated impact from a heavy object? Was it only stuff that was easily reached that was smashed? Are there large sections completely missing or scattered way beyond a point that they would reach by gravity alone?
 
Pedant? Peter? no surly not :-\
good hit! well played Peter.
earthquakes didn't shift these wee buggers. did they?
Owd Git .
 
Going back to an earlier point made by nigel, about NZ caves being less publicised to protect them. I had to smile to myself. If we had that same principle over here I can see the outrage now from those like Tonwhitinglack who think that not only should access be easy, but they want all sorts of information to be openly published!

Can't have it both ways.
 
Elaine said:
Going back to an earlier point made by nigel, about NZ caves being less publicised to protect them. I had to smile to myself. If we had that same principle over here I can see the outrage now from those like Tonwhitinglack who think that not only should access be easy, but they want all sorts of information to be openly published!

Can't have it both ways.

Nigel posted the kernel to which I posted the NZ view.........having seen just a few of their stunning cave systems in Puketiti/Waikato I can understand why the Kiwis keep their 'secrets'

Paul C
 
You can keep your secrets far more easily when you have the population density that New Zealand has when compared with the UK. Similar constraints apply in the western USA where publishing cave location data will get you hung drawn and quartered whereas in the eastern states it is far more freely available.

In the UK every cave is extremely close to a centre of population when compared with these other places, which is why we have devised other methods of protection, gates, leader systems etc.
 
Yes Graham - I do agree.

300 cavers and three thousand plus caves in north island new zealand

3000 cavers (poetic exaggeration) and less than 300 caves in uk.

highlights the problem we have in uk.

Paul C



 
Elaine said:
Going back to an earlier point made by nigel, about NZ caves being less publicised to protect them. I had to smile to myself. If we had that same principle over here I can see the outrage now from those like Tonwhitinglack who think that not only should access be easy, but they want all sorts of information to be openly published!

Can't have it both ways.

One of the major social changes of the last few decades has been a strong move towards openness and freedom of information. We may well not be interacting in this way now if CERN had patented the WWW, fortunately it didn't, it released it as an open standard which others could develop. Imagine if we had  three competing "web" protocols, it would significantly hinder development and competition.

Imagine how many "firsts" there would be in the same cave if nobody knew any one else knew about it? Imagine the I got there first wars.

Even worse imagine the conservation issues. Suppose I am a keen digger and want to push, I may not fully understand the damage I am doing, we can all recognise pretties, but what about the other not so pretty things that need conserving - bat roosts, mud formations, archaeological remains. Openness allows a wider body of knowledge and experience to brought to bear.

Education is the route to making people understand the need to conserve. It seems to me we need a caving "country code", there needs to be much more information out there about which caves are SSSIs and why. Whatever you do you will never completely stop this kind of vandalism, there are just some nutters out there, but you can significantly reduce the unthinking damage from things like people trying to climb formations and throwing mud around.

 
jasonbirder said:
I know in today's egalitarian times we're not supposed to say this...
BUT, there's "groups" and there's "groups aren't there...
There's private punters who pay to be led underground...there's schools/scouts etc parties who are eager to go underground...and there are groups of people for whom public money is made available to take underground (and indeed Climbing/Canoeing etc) and who MAY have no real interest or appreciation for the outdoor environment...
I'm sure someone will jump all over me for saying it...but some of the latter group (IE youth's with behavioural/drug/crime problems) may not be the best people to take into a sensitive underground environment...

Absolutely correct.  Go to Burrington Combe on a weekend and you will generally meet wholesome groups of scouts or school kids.  Go during the week and most of the minibuses arriving there are filled with 'challenging' groups - learning difficulties, drug addiction, excluded from education, young offenders, etc.  All paid for by your taxes.  They can't do that much damage in Goatchurch but in a cave like Swildons they certainly could. 

A few years ago an anti social pair of brothers with a string of ASBOs made the headlines when they were banned from Weston-super-Mare centre.  One of these delightful chaps was sent caving via the Charterhouse Centre to Swildons.  I am told that on arrival on Priddy Green he climbed onto the roof of the minibus and shouted abuse at the owner of Swildons Hole before being coaxed down and taken underground.

If we are taking people of this sort to Swildons we shouldn't be surprised if they come back with their mates and smash off a bit of stal.  Responsibility rests with those of us in the instructing profession to ensure that we keep the wrong sort of groups away from and unaware of vulnerable caves. 
 
^ did they?

What proportion of the 'difficult' people who are taken underground come back and go on a stall smashing spree? If as many 'proplem groups' are taken underground as you sugest and they do enjoy vandalising caves then surly the would be numourus, well documentead cases.
 
I don't thinkit matters if it is 30% or just 0.00000001%. The point is that you don't take people down caves if they obviously do not have the right attitude.

I hate this country sometimes. Or is it society. Dunno. I'm off to get a cow and calf and mend a fence!
 
oli said:
^ did they?

What proportion of the 'difficult' people who are taken underground come back and go on a stall smashing spree?
Very few, possibly none. This is purely speculation based on my experience and observations.
oli said:
If as many 'proplem groups' are taken underground as you sugest and they do enjoy vandalising caves then surly the would be numourus, well documentead cases.
Well, as Cap'n Chris told us about the Swildons vandals...
cap 'n chris said:
They were known criminals, witnessed during the evening deep inside the cave by members of the Avon & Somerset Constabulary Caving Club
I will continue to speculate.  I reckon it's very likely that during some well-intentioned but ultimately doomed attempt to get these scrotes on the straight and narrow that they were taken caving - quite possibly into Swildons on a previous occasion. 

I am not suggesting that this type of thing happens often - maybe that once in Swildons, maybe recently in Giants.  Once is too many times.
 
Unless the captin can tell us differently, the Swildons case isn't documented evedence of some one whos taken underground as part of a 'cave to cure socioties ills' program smashing stall. we can all speculate but we don't know if they were introduced to caves like this.

I think attempting to help troubled people is worth a 0.00000001% risk to calcite.

Iv'e only been in Giants once but the OP says that bits were removed and describes it as a hidden gem that was reasonably hard to get to. I recon it was done by profit motivated cavers. the varst majoraty of people who are into mindless distruction would prefer to smash something without getting cold and wet

Andy Sparrow said:
Go during the week and most of the minibuses arriving there are filled with 'challenging' groups - learning difficulties, drug addiction, excluded from education, young offenders, etc. 

Incedentily I think lumping kids with lerning difficulties in with young offenders, drug addicts and people whos behaviour is so bad they've been excluded from school is offensive. I can see why you've done it, as they do deveate from the norm, but I think its intelectualy lazy.
 
Happily.

My understanding of the origanal post is the dammage occured in an obscure, wet part of the cave protected by a squeze and a climb. I've assumed its below the first ladder climb, because most of the cave is below that pitch. Either way it sounds to me like some caving kit (a decent head torch and helmet at the lest) and some knowlage would be necessary to reach the grotto. This leads me to think that cavers did it, as local YOs dont have either of these.
In my, far less extensive than yours of course, experiance of introducing peope to caving freshers tend to think 'small' is any thing less than 50cm squared, which reinforces my belife that the culpruit had a reasonable amount of experiance.

Stal has a financhial value, and cavers know this. I find it hard to belive (mainly because as goydanman sugessts i like thinking that cavers are all lovely and cuddly) that cavers would smash stall just for shits and giggles. because it seems more logical I think they broke off the stall to sell.
futher the origional post states small stuff was carried off, and the big stuff, which broke on impact with the floor, was left. I think the scumbags hadn't thoght theire calcite stealing through verry well, and hadnt anticipatrd the big stal would smash. when it did of course it lost its monetry value.
of course they could have done it because, like castelret they thought some nice speliotherms would enhance theire mantlepiece.

Do you also want me to expand on why I think lumping kids with lerning difficulties in with those with drug problems is (at best) intelectualy lazy?
 
There is no ladder pitch required to access the chamber where the damage occured.

I agree with Andy's point about the instructor's responsibility to carefully choose a venue suitable for the group. However, damage can occur in any cave and they are all important. Carlswark is officially refered to as a sacraficial venue, it is a SSSI. It is up to the instructor to supervise and educate their group and judge when a group is unsuitable or should be taken out from the cave.
I don't like the implied statement that no groups from bad backgrounds or with challenging behavior should be taken underground. I don't think we have the right to make that choice and some of the best of us have checkered pasts.

I know for a fact that a number of caving clubs run regular trips in that area of Giants and I've seen a lot of uni groups. Is it not just as likely that a hungover, bored student has caused the damage? What sounds more likely, a group supervised by a qualified professional or a group led by a student? Not wishing to start a war here but the instructors always get the blame first.
 
cap 'n chris said:
No matter who did it, what is anyone else going to do about it, other than whinge?

Gotta get thing into perspective Im afraid...you can be an evil little scroat breaking into cars, robbing grannies and using drugs in UK 2010 and you will get a caution maybe an ASBo at worst. What do you think could be achieved pursuing this ? Just a waste of a lot of effort and maybe get a bunch of new rules that just hinder normal cavers and are ignored be the people that did it...  :shrug:
 
The location of these formations went unknown to most passing cavers, who would literally walk past the access point without realising it, for years: no damage ensued. Might it be that said location has now become well-known due to visits - specifically to see the extraordinary stal maybe - becoming commonplace for certain groups? 'Accident' waiting to happen for sure: once you know how to get there, access is a simple matter and not even far into the cave. The damage is a tragedy that might have been anticipated, but sadly can't be resolved now.
 
Andy Sparrow said:
Go to Burrington Combe on a weekend and you will generally meet wholesome groups of scouts or school kids.  Go during the week and most of the minibuses arriving there are filled with 'challenging' groups - learning difficulties, drug addiction, excluded from education, young offenders, etc.  All paid for by your taxes.

Last group I saw there on a weekday were squaddies being given a day out before going off to be shot at for Queen & Country. All paid for with my taxes, too.
 
graham said:
Last group I saw there on a weekday were squaddies being given a day out before going off to be shot at for Queen & Country. All paid for with my taxes, too.

Hmm ... last time i saw a group of squaddies, they were being ordered into a cave entrance with instructions to keep going left (until they emerged through a very wet exit), while the instructor waited outside in the sunshine - the stated aim being to get them used to unquestionably obeying orders to go into unpleasant situations. Good job the cave in question was fairly robust, but I hope none of them picked up a taste for using caves as adventure playgrounds.
 
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