Nowhere is it suggested that it's not an outdoor activity, just that it's not "open air", which is one of the definitions in the legislation. I reckon they are just trying to avoid the out of proportion costs that any of these committees cause, just by their existence, as they are already massively over budget & only see this benefiting a very small percentage of the population.
Should BCA push ahead with a test case for CRoW access?
- Thread starter Brains
- Start date
alastairgott
Well-known member
I?ll pull out the links I saved which show that most of Europe considers caving to be an open-air activity. It is as nonsensical as Jenny describes. But it is good news that all entrances in north wales are under a Derbyshire key arrangement. I didn?t know that! 
One of the questions I like to ask is if caving isn't an open air recreation as [not] defined by CRoW, what is it? If it doesn't fit in alongside other outdoor activities where does it fit. It doesn't fit with indoor activities that would normally take place in a gym or sports hall, it's not a game like football or cricket. Which pigeon hole do the authorities want to place caving in? It seems daft to have caving categorised as an activity on its own.
In any case the Welsh Government have excluded it from the Access Reform initiative. Other activities that are specifically excluded under the CRoW Act are included such as water sports, horse riding and even paragliding I think. It does begin to look like pure bias. Whether CroW applies to caving or not it should not be excluded from access reform considerations in Wales. [full stop]
In any case the Welsh Government have excluded it from the Access Reform initiative. Other activities that are specifically excluded under the CRoW Act are included such as water sports, horse riding and even paragliding I think. It does begin to look like pure bias. Whether CroW applies to caving or not it should not be excluded from access reform considerations in Wales. [full stop]
Tommy
Active member
Paragliding is sadly excluded from CRoW as it is deemed an aviation activity, (de)regulated by the CAA, rather than a sport.
Paragliders are aircraft, and as such "need" regulation on their launch and landing sites, much like other vehicales. Plus sharing airspace with other users needs care, training, and oversight.
Not saying I agree with the whole premise, as many fly for the outdoor recreation benefits rather than transportation or commercial gain so the activity as a whole shares DNA with caving, going for a walk in the fells etc, but this is where we are. Paragliding is a very young and immature sport, born sometime in the mid to late 80s into a world full of regulation, unlike caving, climbing, sailing, all of which have a long and rich history.
In many ways it is fortunate that the CAA have delegated responsibilities to the reprasentative freeflight national body, the BHPA, as it makes the licensing and legal situation much less onerous for individuals than in other countries, though the BHPA carries it's own politics and cultural inertia much like the BCA, and the significatint issue of the monopoly on third party insurance.most clubs and therefore the use of launch sites require BHPA membership specifically (for insurance).
Rope sports don't have the same vehicle/license type issues, the land access issue is the primary challenge. The situation with regards to caving and inhibiting interpretations of the CRoW act are continually bizzare.
A digression, but I think it's important to be aware of how other outdoor users operate, especially when faced with existential threats to the activities. Perhaps there is some national council for the representation of all outdoor activity and wild space users I am not yet aware of?
Paragliders are aircraft, and as such "need" regulation on their launch and landing sites, much like other vehicales. Plus sharing airspace with other users needs care, training, and oversight.
Not saying I agree with the whole premise, as many fly for the outdoor recreation benefits rather than transportation or commercial gain so the activity as a whole shares DNA with caving, going for a walk in the fells etc, but this is where we are. Paragliding is a very young and immature sport, born sometime in the mid to late 80s into a world full of regulation, unlike caving, climbing, sailing, all of which have a long and rich history.
In many ways it is fortunate that the CAA have delegated responsibilities to the reprasentative freeflight national body, the BHPA, as it makes the licensing and legal situation much less onerous for individuals than in other countries, though the BHPA carries it's own politics and cultural inertia much like the BCA, and the significatint issue of the monopoly on third party insurance.most clubs and therefore the use of launch sites require BHPA membership specifically (for insurance).
Rope sports don't have the same vehicle/license type issues, the land access issue is the primary challenge. The situation with regards to caving and inhibiting interpretations of the CRoW act are continually bizzare.
A digression, but I think it's important to be aware of how other outdoor users operate, especially when faced with existential threats to the activities. Perhaps there is some national council for the representation of all outdoor activity and wild space users I am not yet aware of?
Robert Scott
Member
"I can advise that the Welsh Government is of the view...."
As David Rose's sister has a different view, perhaps Alastair you might pose the question "What legal advice has the Welsh Government taken on this question of open-air and outdoor recreation and if so what was the content of that legal advice?"
As David Rose's sister has a different view, perhaps Alastair you might pose the question "What legal advice has the Welsh Government taken on this question of open-air and outdoor recreation and if so what was the content of that legal advice?"
Badlad said:
I was the Caving rep. to one of the East Midlands Sports Council's groups for a number of years and caving was in the grouping of those classed as "Sport using natural facilities", i.e. as opposed to football pitches, sports halls, and the like. So we fitted in with Ramblers, Climbers, Mountaineers and such.
Note that the AALA got round this when it was set up by classing caving as an "Adventurous Activity" so it has another sort of classification as an "Adventure Sport".
It still isn't specifically banned under CRoW legislation though.
According to this thread started by the Cambrian access officer paragliding (well hang gliding) is being considered by the Access Reform Advisory Group in Wales.
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=26136.0
The point I was making is that even those activities which are specifically excluded under the CRoW Act are being considered by this body - except for caving it would seem. Maybe he is wrong about paragliding, but it is definitely the case that horse riding and water based sports are included in the reform process even though they are specifically excluded under CROW. Whatever side you are on in the access debate it cannot be right to exclude caving from consideration fro reform.
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=26136.0
The point I was making is that even those activities which are specifically excluded under the CRoW Act are being considered by this body - except for caving it would seem. Maybe he is wrong about paragliding, but it is definitely the case that horse riding and water based sports are included in the reform process even though they are specifically excluded under CROW. Whatever side you are on in the access debate it cannot be right to exclude caving from consideration fro reform.
alastairgott
Well-known member
