Should BCA push ahead with a test case for CRoW access?
- Thread starter Brains
- Start date
alastairgott
Well-known member
Brains
Well-known member
Well despite my poor terminology, and other posts clearing up some confusion on my part, I am heartened to see such a good response from the registered users of this forum who have contributed.
Much as I respect Matt and the others position, in view of this I would ask them to continue in their modernisation for as long as they can
The results at this time are heavily skewed to the YES option (103:4)
Much as I respect Matt and the others position, in view of this I would ask them to continue in their modernisation for as long as they can
The results at this time are heavily skewed to the YES option (103:4)
PeteHall
Moderator
mch said:
I think you will find that most members of CSCC clubs support the BCA CRoW campaign and also support bringing the BCA into the 21st century for that matter. This is reflected in recent ballots of the BCA membership, though unfortunately not reflected at CSCC committee level.
For many of us, the choice is between spending the rare moments of free time caving, or going to committee meetings. Quite frankly, there is no point going to committee meetings about caving if that means that you don't ever get to go caving. The result is that the committees are often left to the retired generation who have more free time, but whose views may not reflect the majority.
alastairgott
Well-known member
Received a message from Welsh Government this week.
Alistair
I refer to your email addressed to Simon Pickering below and apologise for the delay in responding.
I can advise that the Welsh Government is of the view that caving is not considered to be access land or an ?open-air recreation? under the CROW Act 2000.
With regards to your request for information on caving within the Clwydian Range and Dee Valley Area of Natural Beauty, there are a number of caves and mine entrances in the Alyn valley. Most of the access points are gated and operate a Derbyshire Key system. They are locked completely in bat roosting reason (where it is known bats are an issue). The AoNB works with local caving clubs such as the North Wales Caving Club (NWCC) to manage access. I have provided the NWCC?s website which you may find helpful http://www.northwalescavingclub.org.uk/.
Regards
Sarah
Cangen Tirwedd a Hamdden Awyr Agored / Landscape and Outdoor Recreation Branch
Is-adran T?r, Natur a Choedwigaeth / Land, Nature and Forestry Division
Cyfoeth Naturiol / Natural Resources
-----
From: alastair gott
Sent: 14 April 2020 22:32
To: Pickering, Simon (Project Team - C19)
Subject: Access to Countryside for Caving in Wales
Hi Simon,
I am emailing you today on the subject of Caving in Wales, I'm not a local caver to Wales, but do occasionally do some caving in South Wales and have a great time. My closest area for caving is North Wales, where I know there are some caves, however it is difficult to get information on how to go caving in North Wales.
I know that there are large caverns under Esclusham Mountain near Wrexham, but the last I heard was that they were inaccessible through Ogof Llyn Parc. Sadly I don't know what the current state of access to this cave is, I believe it may be on Grosvenor Estate land. The hurdle for many to get access into this pothole would be the 100m entrance shaft which would put off the unsuspecting visitor. However, my local caving area is Derbyshire, where we have Titan Shaft, which involves 174m worth of abseiling and prussicing to get into and out of.
There are many fine caves such as Ogof Llyn Parc and they are all within the Clwydian Range and Dee Valley Area of Natural Beauty, and therefore sit within the Crow designation. I look to other Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty and I have only to wonder what this part of North Wales would be like if Caving were to be allowed under the Crow designation.
(map of UK AONB's https://landscapesforlife.org.uk/index.php?cID=1001)
One of my favorite AONB's to go Caving in is the Nidderdale, I have had fantastic weekend's up in Nidderdale with some of the local cavers. Nidderdale is a remote wilderness which people do visit, but generally in small numbers, the caves are all open access despite being downstream of a great big dam holding back water.
When we visit we tend to camp, all year round, and there is a deal with the local pub where we're allowed to camp in his field (for free), if we drink in his pub. It is these little interactions which I truly believe the Clwydian range and Dee Valley Area of Natural Beauty is lacking.
Through fostering access to the Clwydian Range and Dee Valley Area of Natural Beauty you will help local businesss. I can't promise that cavers will visit the area in any great numbers, maybe 3-8 on most weekends of the year or maybe more. But what I can promise is that if cavers from all over the UK know that it's an area they can visit with open access they may either decide to visit the Clwydian Range on their way to or from the Slate mines (such as Cwmorthin where "Go Below" are based) or indeed make a whole weekend of visiting several of the caves on the Clwydian Range.
It is these situations where the local economy will flourish. Wrexham and the surrounding areas are not particularly wealthy places, but with even a fraction more visitors to the area buying their breakfasts and dinners locally. At a worst case, 3 people each spending a measly ?10 a day on meals out for 50 weekends a year, would put at least ?3000 in the pockets of local businesses.
To me, I would see this as being a positive step, not only for the cavers visiting, but also the local people and with extra visitors in the area may even lead to fringe benefits of the local population wanting to get out and do more exercise.
It is with this, Albeit lengthy, but heartfelt plea that I ask you to consider that Caving should be considered to be an open-air recreation. It is with this definition that it will be included under the Crow designation and will lead to better, more sustainable and more open access to the caves of Wales.
Regards,
Alastair
Alistair
I refer to your email addressed to Simon Pickering below and apologise for the delay in responding.
I can advise that the Welsh Government is of the view that caving is not considered to be access land or an ?open-air recreation? under the CROW Act 2000.
With regards to your request for information on caving within the Clwydian Range and Dee Valley Area of Natural Beauty, there are a number of caves and mine entrances in the Alyn valley. Most of the access points are gated and operate a Derbyshire Key system. They are locked completely in bat roosting reason (where it is known bats are an issue). The AoNB works with local caving clubs such as the North Wales Caving Club (NWCC) to manage access. I have provided the NWCC?s website which you may find helpful http://www.northwalescavingclub.org.uk/.
Regards
Sarah
Cangen Tirwedd a Hamdden Awyr Agored / Landscape and Outdoor Recreation Branch
Is-adran T?r, Natur a Choedwigaeth / Land, Nature and Forestry Division
Cyfoeth Naturiol / Natural Resources
-----
From: alastair gott
Sent: 14 April 2020 22:32
To: Pickering, Simon (Project Team - C19)
Subject: Access to Countryside for Caving in Wales
Hi Simon,
I am emailing you today on the subject of Caving in Wales, I'm not a local caver to Wales, but do occasionally do some caving in South Wales and have a great time. My closest area for caving is North Wales, where I know there are some caves, however it is difficult to get information on how to go caving in North Wales.
I know that there are large caverns under Esclusham Mountain near Wrexham, but the last I heard was that they were inaccessible through Ogof Llyn Parc. Sadly I don't know what the current state of access to this cave is, I believe it may be on Grosvenor Estate land. The hurdle for many to get access into this pothole would be the 100m entrance shaft which would put off the unsuspecting visitor. However, my local caving area is Derbyshire, where we have Titan Shaft, which involves 174m worth of abseiling and prussicing to get into and out of.
There are many fine caves such as Ogof Llyn Parc and they are all within the Clwydian Range and Dee Valley Area of Natural Beauty, and therefore sit within the Crow designation. I look to other Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty and I have only to wonder what this part of North Wales would be like if Caving were to be allowed under the Crow designation.
(map of UK AONB's https://landscapesforlife.org.uk/index.php?cID=1001)
One of my favorite AONB's to go Caving in is the Nidderdale, I have had fantastic weekend's up in Nidderdale with some of the local cavers. Nidderdale is a remote wilderness which people do visit, but generally in small numbers, the caves are all open access despite being downstream of a great big dam holding back water.
When we visit we tend to camp, all year round, and there is a deal with the local pub where we're allowed to camp in his field (for free), if we drink in his pub. It is these little interactions which I truly believe the Clwydian range and Dee Valley Area of Natural Beauty is lacking.
Through fostering access to the Clwydian Range and Dee Valley Area of Natural Beauty you will help local businesss. I can't promise that cavers will visit the area in any great numbers, maybe 3-8 on most weekends of the year or maybe more. But what I can promise is that if cavers from all over the UK know that it's an area they can visit with open access they may either decide to visit the Clwydian Range on their way to or from the Slate mines (such as Cwmorthin where "Go Below" are based) or indeed make a whole weekend of visiting several of the caves on the Clwydian Range.
It is these situations where the local economy will flourish. Wrexham and the surrounding areas are not particularly wealthy places, but with even a fraction more visitors to the area buying their breakfasts and dinners locally. At a worst case, 3 people each spending a measly ?10 a day on meals out for 50 weekends a year, would put at least ?3000 in the pockets of local businesses.
To me, I would see this as being a positive step, not only for the cavers visiting, but also the local people and with extra visitors in the area may even lead to fringe benefits of the local population wanting to get out and do more exercise.
It is with this, Albeit lengthy, but heartfelt plea that I ask you to consider that Caving should be considered to be an open-air recreation. It is with this definition that it will be included under the Crow designation and will lead to better, more sustainable and more open access to the caves of Wales.
Regards,
Alastair
Interesting that, until very recently (due to their requirement for Cambrian Council to sign up to various Child Protection measures - see. Cambrian NL.61, Dec. 2019) Cambrian Council received support for Sport Wales. Presumably this was because caving came under the general heading of what is normally called "Outdoor Activity", so I'm not sure how NRW and the Welsh government can now be arguing that caving is NOT an "outdoor activity".
As a matter of interest, the famouse Whitehall Outdoor Pursuits Centre in Derbyshire has been going since the 1950's and included caving amongst its activities from the outset.
Just what is the problem with "outdoor activities", "outdoor pursuits", etc. as applied to caving which means it is somehow not considered to be "open air" - it's a semantic difference which is utterly nonsensical.
Alistair's letter was a model: polite, detailing the advantages to be gained for local economy and absolutely positive. So how he can receive the reply:
"I can advise that the Welsh Government is of the view that caving is not considered to be access land or an ?open-air recreation? ...",
beggars belief. The CRoW Act says nothing - a big fat zero - about caving and it certainly doesn't ban it, as it does some other outsdoor activities.
IMHO, logic has flown out of the window in pursuit of prejudice in the Welsh Government's letter!
As a matter of interest, the famouse Whitehall Outdoor Pursuits Centre in Derbyshire has been going since the 1950's and included caving amongst its activities from the outset.
Just what is the problem with "outdoor activities", "outdoor pursuits", etc. as applied to caving which means it is somehow not considered to be "open air" - it's a semantic difference which is utterly nonsensical.
Alistair's letter was a model: polite, detailing the advantages to be gained for local economy and absolutely positive. So how he can receive the reply:
"I can advise that the Welsh Government is of the view that caving is not considered to be access land or an ?open-air recreation? ...",
beggars belief. The CRoW Act says nothing - a big fat zero - about caving and it certainly doesn't ban it, as it does some other outsdoor activities.
IMHO, logic has flown out of the window in pursuit of prejudice in the Welsh Government's letter!
