St Cuthberts Swallet - a question

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Peter Burgess

New member
Can anyone help me please?

I would like to know the historical background to the leader scheme used to great effect (from a conservation point of view) in St Cuthberts.

Why was a leader scheme introduced in the cave? Has it been in place from day 1? Whose decision was it - the owners, or cavers?

My personal view is that the scheme is a Good Thing. It has saved much of the cave from a great deal of deterioration. But was the reason for the scheme primarily base on conservation issues, safety issues, liability issues? Something else?

Peter
 
Slug

Slug

Member
The best people to ask are the B.E.C..as they are the custodians of the cave I believe, on behalf of thre landowners. To the best of My recolection, the leader system has been in place for most of its exploration. Tony Jarrat (at Bat Products), Dave Irwin (Wigg) or the comittee. The Wessex will almost cetainly have people who will know..................Failing that why not buy a copy of the St. Cuthberts Report, published by the B.E.C. It has all the answers....................Hope this helps Pete.
 
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Peter Burgess

New member
Thanks, Slug. I have been browsing the Belfry Bulletin online archive for information, and there is useful stuff there. I am in Somerset this weekend so might have the chance to call by somewhere and ask, however we have a busy schedule. Asking the BEC is I hope what I am doing by posting here. Is there not someone here who knows the answer? If we go down to Wells I will call on J-Rat and see if he can help.
 
underground

underground

Active member
The BEC's St. Cuthbert's report is a great publication, packed with detail and surveys etc. and well worth the money. I picked mine up from the Belfry.
 
Slug

Slug

Member
underground said:
The BEC's St. Cuthbert's report is a great publication, packed with detail and surveys etc. and well worth the money. I picked mine up from the Belfry.
Click to expand...

You can pick a lot of things up at The Belfry....................most of which have long names, usualy in Latin. (Except "Butcombe Botty" which is as English as the Royal Family 8) )
 
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andymorgan

Guest
Yes the answers are all in the Cuthberts book. I don't have mine here, but if I remember the leader scheme has been in place since day 1.
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
Sorry, Andy, but not entirely true. The Cuthbert's book doesn't mention much about the leader system other than saying page seventy eight:

"Access to SCS is controlled by BEC on behalf of the landowners Inveresk Paper Group. The agreement states that entry to the system will be strictly supervised. To this end a leader system is operated".

Also, "in an effort to preserve the cave, parties must be accompanied by an approved leader".

Although there is a bit on page seven, "At the end of 1953 an agreement was drawn up between the BEC and the Wookey Paper Mills that empowered the former to control access to the cave and indemnify the owners against all claims that might arise. The most important clause set in the agreement was that the water flowing through the cave was to be kept clean and unpolluted. As a result it was decided at the 1955 BEC AGM that a leader system be set up for the following three reasons:

To conserve the cave
To deal with the complexity of the system
To prevent general pollution of the waterways".

It is interesting to note that "these proposals were vigorously opposed by certain members of the club".

So, it took about 2 years for the leader system to be written as a prerequisite for trips from the original discovery of the cave.
 
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Andy Sparrow

Active member
cap 'n chris said:
It is interesting to note that "these proposals were vigorously opposed by certain members of the club".
Click to expand...

Not surprising really - Cuthberts must have been one of the first UK systems to have a leader system, so it was fairly radical at the time. I believe there were bitter divisions a few years later when the leadership system was extended to members of other clubs; not all the BEC approved of this.
 
graham

graham

New member
Conservation did not really appear as a front line topic in caving until the 1970s and it is only very recently indeed that any cave has had a decent conservation regime in place from close to the moment of discovery.

However, there can be no doubt that the BEC should be congratulated on their stewardship of St Cuthberts. It has been damaged far less by the passage of cavers than any other cave that has been open, on Mendip, for as long.
 
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andymorgan

Guest
cap 'n chris said:
Sorry, Andy, but not entirely true. The Cuthbert's book doesn't mention much about the leader system other than saying page seventy eight:

"Access to SCS is controlled by BEC on behalf of the landowners Inveresk Paper Group. The agreement states that entry to the system will be strictly supervised. To this end a leader system is operated".

Also, "in an effort to preserve the cave, parties must be accompanied by an approved leader".

Although there is a bit on page seven, "At the end of 1953 an agreement was drawn up between the BEC and the Wookey Paper Mills that empowered the former to control access to the cave and indemnify the owners against all claims that might arise. The most important clause set in the agreement was that the water flowing through the cave was to be kept clean and unpolluted. As a result it was decided at the 1955 BEC AGM that a leader system be set up for the following three reasons:

To conserve the cave
To deal with the complexity of the system
To prevent general pollution of the waterways".

It is interesting to note that "these proposals were vigorously opposed by certain members of the club".

So, it took about 2 years for the leader system to be written as a prerequisite for trips from the original discovery of the cave.
Click to expand...

There was also stuff in the history (the chronology) about the leader system debate if I remember.
 
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Peter Burgess

New member
Conservation did not really appear as a front line topic in caving until the 1970s
Click to expand...

That's what I thought, and why I was curious to find out what the 1950s reason was for introducing the scheme.

Thanks for all the replies. I share other's admiration for how well the BEC have looked after this cave, and have stated as much in the past.
I imagine a similar discussion on Ogof Ffynnon Ddu I might also be of interest. Safety, owner's concerns? My experience is that there are far more sensitive parts of OFD II than much of OFD I, and no leader is necessary to enter the other sections of the cave, apart from the Columns.
 
graham

graham

New member
OFD1 is easier. The landowner insists on a much higher degree of control over that part of the cave because it is his water supply. Yes, there is a degree of illogicality in that given that it's the same stream, but since when did logic play a major role in our thinking.
 
Slug

Slug

Member
Hmmmm, The great Conservation V Access debate ( can of worms ? ) rumbles on, as I suspect it always will. What Andy Sparrow said was quite true, I suppose because once you're entrusted with that responsibility, wanted or otherwise, it may feel hard to relinquish/sub-let it, without feeling that that burden is still upon You, should anything "Go wrong................especially if You're giving it to the dreadded Wessex :LOL: .
Even these days, at various AGM's, the St. Cuthberts situation can still cause more than a little debate,and delay in " Tapping the Barrel". Though, by and large, I think We're quite proud of the way the system has preserved the cave so well, for so long.
St. Cuthberts is an individual case, as are they all, and what works for Us, may not be what works for others, it is nevertheless, an example of how it CAN be done. Everyones a winner, especially the Cave it's self.
 
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darkplaces

Guest
If it warrants it the leader system is fine and does a good job, as long as you dont have to jump though hoops, fill in reams of paperwork and book 3 months in advance to do it AND can contact someone to arrange the visit.

Does the entrance have a note on it saying who to contact? Not forgetting casual internet access is still a minority thing.
 
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Peter Burgess

New member
Please don't turn this thread into another argument about access vs conservation with or without bureaucracy . That issue has been gone over before. I was interested in the original reasons for the access arrangement, not a discussion about whether it is a good or a bad thing.

My question is answered now, so thank you everyone.

As far as St Cuths is concerned, most people get an excellent trip if they plan in advance, and everyone turns up when they said they would. Any system will fail occasionally - messages aren't passed on properly and so on, but this is a small price to pay to keep the cave in pristine condition.
 
graham

graham

New member
c**tplaces said:
Does the entrance have a note on it saying who to contact?
Click to expand...

Given where the entrance is, in relation to the Belfry and the Sheep, I doubt many cavers get anywhere close without having suitable advice available easily.
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
Yes. Given where the entrance is, by the time you've gone to the trouble to find out where it is you will already have walked straight past either the BEC or SMCC huts!
 
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