Starting caving as a larger chap

[sim667]

I went "caving" as a kid and really enjoyed it (Merstham Mines if anyone is familiar), but now as a fully grown man I would like something exploratory to do on land paerticularly in the winters (I'm a keen scuba diver in the summer). However I'm a bit of a plump man. I am working on my weight, but I'm currently about 17 stone, so squeezes and climbing isn't something I want to throw myself straight into...... however, a crawl, a wade I'd probably be fine with.

Is this something thats much of a barrier for me?

Also yes I know cave diving is a thing, and from a reading about it element, I do find it fascinating, but I don't think I quite have the cajones for it, plus a wife who only just tolerates my scuba hobby

 

[bograt]

Area/Region ??

 

[caving_fox]

There are some places you won't be able to get into - which is true for practically all of us! - but you'll be fine in the trade routes of the vast majority of UK caves.

As above - where are you based? https://newtocaving.com/contacts.php is probably your best resource to find a club local to you. They'll normally be able to loan you some kit for your first trip or two and introduce to the wonders of the underground.

 

[sim667]

Ah yeah should have said, I'm in Surrey, my local is Wealden Cave and Mine Society.

 

[snebbit]

I'm 16st and barrel-chested but have been 19st while a caver, and regularly out with others this size and bigger.

Yes there will be barriers very occasionally but you'd be surprised:
a) what a small percentage of mainstream trips have squeezes, and
b) what you can fit through once you've become more comfortable with squeezes (no lies though - it will take a while to get comfortable committing to squeezes).

The worst that can happen is you don't fit through an obstacle and will have to wait while the ferrets go on and return for you. Initially your brain will spit you back out of a squeeze well before you're in danger of getting stuck. So your list of no-go trips will eventually just be those where there's a tight squeeze not far inside the entrance. But that excludes such a small number of tourist trips (at least up here in the Dales).

I've been lucky in knowing a caver a similar size to me with decades of experience, to whom I can rattle off a list of caves and he'll say 'yes', 'give it a go' or 'no chance'.

Definitely go for it! It's great exercise anyway so squeezes only get easier the more intensely you cave

 

[sim667]

I'm 16st and barrel-chested but have been 19st while a caver, and regularly out with others this size and bigger.

Yes there will be barriers very occasionally but you'd be surprised:
a) what a small percentage of mainstream trips have squeezes, and
b) what you can fit through once you've become more comfortable with squeezes (no lies though - it will take a while to get comfortable committing to squeezes).

The worst that can happen is you don't fit through an obstacle and will have to wait while the ferrets go on and return for you. Initially your brain will spit you back out of a squeeze well before you're in danger of getting stuck. So your list of no-go trips will eventually just be those where there's a tight squeeze not far inside the entrance. But that excludes such a small number of tourist trips (at least up here in the Dales).

I've been lucky in knowing a caver a similar size to me with decades of experience, to whom I can rattle off a list of caves and he'll say 'yes', 'give it a go' or 'no chance'.

Definitely go for it! It's great exercise anyway so squeezes only get easier the more intensely you cave

Brill I was hoping someone would offer some practical advice. I'm after some kind of land exploration and it's either this or buying a motorbike, and my wife isn't keen on the motorbike idea, and to be quite frank - rambling won't cut it. I'm doing my degree whilst working full time at the moment, but I'll give WCMS a shout and see if they have any local stuff I can venture into with them over the winter.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

Ah yeah should have said, I'm in Surrey, my local is Wealden Cave and Mine Society.

Then the logical thing is to pose your question in a pub meet (or however they do it in their club) for the Wealden C&M Soc.

However... the jokers in the pack to consider are..

• Where you work. For example if you happen to work somewhere that has a caving club (like Westminster, Croydon, or wherever)
• Maybe check out a caving club in a region that you neither live or work but particularly want to go caving in
• Managing caving and scuba and the like with my Mrs hasn't been entirely harmonious and successful so I can't offer myself as an example, but some people might wish to join a club in an area where the wife might want to go, like you both join and stay in a caving hut but she goes walking during the day, Derbyshire Dales, N yorks, S Wales - that might be a factor where to join. Many clubs have non caving members.

 

[sim667]

My wife isn't much of an outdoorsy one, so joining a club in a region that interests her isn't really a factor for me....... I was just using the rambling as a comment of an exploratory hobby that doesn't really interest me.

I'll look locally as a starting point, I love photography and I work in emergency healthcare so some of the oppurtinty to photography and first aid/incidents type elements of these kind past times are quite interesting to me too.

 

[tdobson]

It wouldn't be an issue with us (you'd probably just be above average), but different groups are different.

 

[JAshley73]

As a moderately thin American, (possibly 'plump' by global standards, perhaps) let me just comment that nothing will inspire one to get in better shape, than being knackered after a long trip.

Type 2 fun at the worst. I say go for it...

 

[Tritim230]

My wife isn't much of an outdoorsy one, so joining a club in a region that interests her isn't really a factor for me....... I was just using the rambling as a comment of an exploratory hobby that doesn't really interest me.

I'll look locally as a starting point, I love photography and I work in emergency healthcare so some of the oppurtinty to photography and first aid/incidents type elements of these kind past times are quite interesting to me too.

Your first aid expertise would be welcomed in cave rescue groups.

Happy to look after you in the Forest if you can stomach the M4 to Gloucestershire

 

[Steve Clark]

This is a topic close to my heart and I can speak with some experience! I was put off caving for many years because it seemed stupid to start something I assumed I had a natural handicap for.

I started life as a Lancashire climber, then went to university in the flatlands drank lots of beer, kebabs, and became a fat diver and later a fat clear-water cave diver. That was my main hobby and got reasonably good at it over 20 years or so. My first 'dry' caving experience was beyond a 900m / 30m deep sump on a cave dive in France. No idea what I was doing at that point really. I started caving proper about 7 years ago when I moved to Lancaster, close to the Dales with friends from our climbing club.

I currently weigh 116kg / 18st, 6ft3, slightly lighter than last year (** see below). For the majority of vertical trips in the Dales this isn't a problem other than it's a bit harder work to climb longer pitches (going up the rope, sit-stand squats). There are trips that I can't do because my chest size is too big. There are trips I can't do because my legs are too long to fit around a corner. But it's all on a scale of difficulty and there are many trips that only the smallest 25% of the fit population could do anyway. I've turned around or chosen different routes on many trips because of my size. I've also turned around for dozens of other reasons with other people too. Too big, too cold, too tired, weather doubts, water levels, can't find the way, bad air, brought the wrong gear, couldn't find the bolts, snow on the roads, leaving early so as not to miss the pub. Being a larger person is just another factor and it's not a show stopper at all for most caving.

Caving is an excellent activity for confidence, core strength, cardio. You get to meet some great people and it definitely ticks the personal exploration box. It's a really interesting place for photography too (some examples below on my FLIKR link).

The thing that stood out in your post is your location. I guess 2-3hrs to Mendip? I've drifted away from diving in the sea because it's 4-5hrs to go somewhere good from Lancashire. A few hours scuba diving uses a whole weekend and lots of ancillary costs (fuel, digs, food out etc.). Whereas I can go caving 20mins down the road any night of the week and work around family plans. My diving is now isolated to Capernwray or week-long concentrated trips to Mexico or Florida instead.

If you love caving, it'll be worth the driving. Many folks from city clubs (e.g Dudley) do lots of travelling to get on full weekend trips away.

As for combining caving with a non-outdoors partner, I've been separated for 3 years and I'm now a full time single dad to two sixth-formers. Busy, but very simple to get out caving whenever I want. That's not a recommendation(!), but it currently suits me.

** I've recently bought a gravel bike and it is working really well for me as a larger person. I can get straight out of the house and do 100km a week on offroad tracks. Several hours of good cardio and safer on the joints than running. Loads of interesting places to see. More comfortable than a road bike, and as fast as I need. Safer than a motorbike. Lost around 6kgs in 3 months. It's also really helped with strength in my quads which makes SRT (rope climbing) much easier. For 'land exploration' it's the best activity I've found. May be worth a go too.

 

[MJenkinson]

I got into caving from diving, and it gradually took over as a bit of a passion!

I am not "massive" but I am not your typical caver build; I am 6ft and about 105kg. My caving compadres are significantly more slender (although also taller in some cases). I cannot and will not do some of the trips they do - you can shove Freeze Squeeze, for example, up you know where. My size has prevented me (usually psychologically Vs physically) from doing some trips but I have done plenty of caving and had a lot of fun.

I'd argue that in most cases it is fitness rather than size that is the limiting factor. I have caved with some bigger blokes who were extremely quick and competent and have got through all sorts of squeezes. I have also found that the more experience I gain, the more tolerant I am of small spaces. You learn how to move your body to get through tricky bits etc so it becomes less of a limitation.

The only cautionary note is "one way" trips such as pull throughs with a squeeze at the end. You want to be sure there is a bypass or be happy with the prospect of a long reverse trip if you are a bit larger. Early on I did the short round trip in Swildons and spent the entire time flapping about not-birthday-squeeze because I knew if I couldn't do it, it was going to be a royal pain. Most cavers, beyond the bravado, are quite helpful, and if you are honest about a concern they will be able to advise you.

 

[porgzilla]

This is a topic close to my heart and I can speak with some experience! I was put off caving for many years because it seemed stupid to start something I assumed I had a natural handicap for.

I started life as a Lancashire climber, then went to university in the flatlands drank lots of beer, kebabs, and became a fat diver and later a fat clear-water cave diver. That was my main hobby and got reasonably good at it over 20 years or so. My first 'dry' caving experience was beyond a 900m / 30m deep sump on a cave dive in France. No idea what I was doing at that point really. I started caving proper about 7 years ago when I moved to Lancaster, close to the Dales with friends from our climbing club.

I currently weigh 116kg / 18st, 6ft3, slightly lighter than last year (** see below). For the majority of vertical trips in the Dales this isn't a problem other than it's a bit harder work to climb longer pitches (going up the rope, sit-stand squats). There are trips that I can't do because my chest size is too big. There are trips I can't do because my legs are too long to fit around a corner. But it's all on a scale of difficulty and there are many trips that only the smallest 25% of the fit population could do anyway. I've turned around or chosen different routes on many trips because of my size. I've also turned around for dozens of other reasons with other people too. Too big, too cold, too tired, weather doubts, water levels, can't find the way, bad air, brought the wrong gear, couldn't find the bolts, snow on the roads, leaving early so as not to miss the pub. Being a larger person is just another factor and it's not a show stopper at all for most caving.

Caving is an excellent activity for confidence, core strength, cardio. You get to meet some great people and it definitely ticks the personal exploration box. It's a really interesting place for photography too (some examples below on my FLIKR link).

The thing that stood out in your post is your location. I guess 2-3hrs to Mendip? I've drifted away from diving in the sea because it's 4-5hrs to go somewhere good from Lancashire. A few hours scuba diving uses a whole weekend and lots of ancillary costs (fuel, digs, food out etc.). Whereas I can go caving 20mins down the road any night of the week and work around family plans. My diving is now isolated to Capernwray or week-long concentrated trips to Mexico or Florida instead.

If you love caving, it'll be worth the driving. Many folks from city clubs (e.g Dudley) do lots of travelling to get on full weekend trips away.

As for combining caving with a non-outdoors partner, I've been separated for 3 years and I'm now a full time single dad to two sixth-formers. Busy, but very simple to get out caving whenever I want. That's not a recommendation(!), but it currently suits me.

** I've recently bought a gravel bike and it is working really well for me as a larger person. I can get straight out of the house and do 100km a week on offroad tracks. Several hours of good cardio and safer on the joints than running. Loads of interesting places to see. More comfortable than a road bike, and as fast as I need. Safer than a motorbike. Lost around 6kgs in 3 months. It's also really helped with strength in my quads which makes SRT (rope climbing) much easier. For 'land exploration' it's the best activity I've found. May be worth a go too.

What trips have your massive legs given you trouble with?

 

[Peregrina]

It feels significantly more limiting when you're caving with wiry little people who cannot be trusted regarding route descriptions because they walked through something that I'll have to stoop through, stooped through something I will have to crawl through, crawled through something I will have to be flat-out in and barely notice a constriction that for me is a moderately technical squeeze. Find cavers who are also large or don't like squeezes and they won't even suggest these trips. Equally sometimes people will tell you that something isn't going to be passable for you, and then it's actually fine with good technique as it's difficult for somebody else to estimate.

I'd echo Steve that on a lot of trips it's pretty normal for some people to wait around or head out early for various reasons. The aforementioned skinny people are always getting cold!

A lot of it is technique though and the larger you are the more practice you get at good technique... there's an old journal article somewhere (Cambridge Uni or Happy Wanderers?) arguing it's big cavers who are the hard ones because for is it's all more difficult for us

I'm 6'4" and have caved between 96 kg and something like 142 kg - but it's a positive feedback cycle where the more I do the slimmer I am.

 

[Steve Clark]

What trips have your massive legs given you trouble with?

Mainly on the legs :-

Voldermort Hole, trying to get to photograph Haywagon. My size and length of legs means I can't change from feet first down the ladder to head first to get through the engineered hole before the climb down. It's quite hard to figure it out feet first when I can't see the way. Too dodgy and I'm too weak to attempt climbing down the ladder head first and then getting hopelessly stuck.

Boxhead pot entrance pipe is a pain to climb. My femurs are too long to fit across the diameter of the pipe so I can't climb the pre-cut foot holes. I can get out on the rope by lengthening the footloop and taking small steps/jugs.

Bar Pot was pretty tight on my chest when I tried it early on. I put the descender on a cowstail but I didn't commit because I wasn't confident that I'd be able to jug back up through it. Not an easy place to be assisted from below. I reckon this might be possible now I've sorted an adjustable footloop+pantin and have done a lot more trips.

There is a u-bend calcite squeeze to access part of Glasfurds Chamber in Gavel. A combination of my size, flexibility and the length of my legs means I can't bend around it. Tried without wellies and oversuit too.

Other spots just because of my size :-

Swinsto - there is one spot in the cascades that most folks don't even notice. I have to take the SRT kit off and carefully slide through diagonally. Takes a few mins but it's ok. As a pull-through, it's quite important.

Simpsons - Can't do the slit at the head of Slit Pot - have to climb up above. Also have to traverse over one of the sections just before this - Aven Pot?

Toyland - The initial climb up is awkward. The straight-on rift before the hole in the floor, I can't fit. Got a bit stuck abseiling back down here. With hindsight would have been much better to just hold the rope and side down.

Tatham Wife - The sideways constriction into the start of the ramp. Really tight with croll on. Actually having seen others do this, I could just take it off and handline it with a hand jammer.

Shep Pot (or maybe it was one of the others nearby) - Sections that have been capped are too narrow for me without a lot of effort and continuously moving up and down whilst sliding sideways. Bit horrible really.

4th/5th? pitch in Bull Pot - was really awkward to get into a position to start rigging this and I gave up.

Cheese Press - Obvs.

I did get stuck for a hour at the awkward corner in County recently. Just two of us larger folks together with no skinny folks available to stand on. Can we have a bolt here for a handline please? Somewhere higher up so most folks can't see it.

Club trips I have deliberately avoided so far on other people's advice :-

Blowhole in GG (tight), Vesper Pot (hard work even if you're thin), Link Pot entrance bit (tight), Pool Sink corners at the start (legs), Top Sink (apparently needs a lot of crawling in water for those that can't slide sideways?), Cow Pot (one-way awkward climb and then whether I can fit through the next bit ok), Stink Pot Marble Steps, Big Meanie.

 

[Steve Clark]

Actually, ignore me, there is a spit in County on the awkward corner, I just need to remember the hanger.

 

[snebbit]

Steve it was cathartic reading the bits you struggle with and I feel less alone in the world! Especially with the Swinsto move in the cascades which I've never seen anyone else think twice about.

Roaring Hole entrance I've struggled with. Aygill just after the first pitch. Gour Chamber in BPOTW (I've now been able to get down this but only just, and can't imagine getting up it still).

I have my 'County Butler' that I just leave as a rig now and bring each time - a hanger with knotted thin tat at the right lengths for me with a rusty spanner attached by a cord, always ready for action and deployed in seconds. Still requires a footstool companion if coming out of there one-way though

Of the ones you said you've avoided, I can only say that Pool Sink wasn't as bad as I'd expected, there's a little room in the bedding to manoeuvre the gangly legs and the tube isn't as tight on the body as it first looks, it just takes some mindful planning of your rotations and folding. It's also a really nice trip once you're past those first few metres so I've forgiven it. Also Stink Pot turned me away twice but I did eventually manage it, and was surprised not to have any real issues getting back up it (from memory).

 

[Babyhagrid]

I'm 6"3 and about 105kg
I've done pool sink recentlyish and found it not too bad really . Top sink did involve a lot of crawling in water on my side but was achievable. It's a chest depth issue . The Voldemort entrance was quite tight but I managed with SRT kit on and with a. Tacklebag (in and out). Slit pot in Simpsons is doable from me but with a descender on a cowstail and with some help pushing me through.
I've definitely found tighter bits of cave have gotten easier over time as my techniques have got better.

Recently washfold gave me very slight struggle but this was solved with SRT kit removal . The same with King pot. But in both instances a supportive smaller person to take a bag and help hand SRT kits through gaps is invaluable. The worst I've had is trying to get back up the thrutch in gingling which took a lot of assistance and a bit of bruising. Not one for those with a big ribcage.

 

[caving_fox]

I'm a fairly slim 6'2 but with disproportionately long legs - Stream Passage entrance pipe. Barely made it out with a massive fight. Apparently much easier with a pantin. Even the odd toe hold cut into the walls might help.
CwmDwr (wales) entrance pipe. Again legs don't fit. Options are either pull-ups to get your toes in, or backwards (the pipe isn't circular) where you can then just about get yoru heels into the footsteps.
King pot T-piece passage was a proper pain, but I think that is actually true for most people!

To some degree fat and muscle squeezes. Bone really doesn't bend at all.