State of Play in the BCA

[mikem]

According to Feb council meeting minutes (published in March) P&I, radon group (not currently active!) & newsletter are only roles unfilled. As stated above the treasurer is standing down at AGM.

Also in the minutes are decent increase in clubs & CIMs over 2021's low (although last year's minutes, which have only just been published, show that in March 2022 numbers were very similar to previous year's total & by May back up close to 2020's). Plus about one tenth are DIMs.

 

[JoshW]

According to Feb council meeting minutes (published in March) P&I, radon group (not currently active!) & newsletter are only roles unfilled. As stated above the treasurer is standing down at AGM.

I believe nearlywhite was stating the roles that will be vacant as from the AGM

 

[hannahb]

Interesting thread.

I'm intrigued (and it's news to me) that the compulsory BCA membership fee covers more than the cost of the compulsory insurance. I think this should be made clearer to clubs and to people paying their subs to those clubs.

I object to the compulsory insurance but I accept it's not going to go away any time soon. I don't, however, object to paying subs to an organisation that funds, for example, the CNCC, who do excellent work in the northern regions (and I assume the same can be said for other regional councils). I assume that's how it works - is that right?

And I agree with the previous poster who (paraphrasing) mentioned that it's astounding how big and complicated the BCA has to be to essentially fund the regional councils and provide a library service. If someone could explain why it has such a huge and awkward structure I'd be very interested to read.

 

[andrewmcleod]

The only way ill ever stand is if, en mass, the right group of people all stand effectively performing a coup, then sit there for a year dealing with the inevitable shit storm only to have to do it all again to get rid of the other half of the posts.

That sort of already happened a few years ago. I'm not sure any of the current occupants of the actual BCA positions have been in post that long; I'm not sure I can think of anyone who has been on council for more than 5 years now and most less?

 

[andrewmcleod]

And I agree with the previous poster who (paraphrasing) mentioned that it's astounding how big and complicated the BCA has to be to essentially fund the regional councils and provide a library service. If someone could explain why it has such a huge and awkward structure I'd be very interested to read.

It isn't really _that_ big and complicated. It's actually a comparable level of complexity to SWCC committee, which now has 10 committee positions (significantly reduced from a few years ago), half a dozen working groups and a considerable number of appointed non-committee positions.

Actually SWCC committee is much more organized (probably because it has been around a lot longer) with a recent management restructuring, standing orders for meetings, a document controller and an archivist etc...

In fact I suspect the total volunteer effort spent by SWCC volunteers, outside of executive members, is probably comparable to the BCA...

The BCA has an executive (which I think _is_ quite a lot of work) of the Chair, Secretary and Treasurer (although the distribution of work between these three may vary quite a bit I suspect), a few other important jobs like Insurance Manager, and half a dozen working groups. Plus the four 'extras' (individual and group representatives). There's probably less than 15 people who are really the 'BCA committee' (a concept which doesn't really exist).

Part of the problem is that the total volunteer effort in caving is diluted between clubs, then regional councils, then the BCA with a massive duplication of effort. For example, five regions that all reinvent the wheel with regards to certain things... That also bloats what people _think_ of as the BCA - suddenly instead of one Conservation and Access Officer, you have a working group with one BCA Conservation and Access person, five regional Conservation and Access people, seven national body Conservation and Access people...

That's not intended to be anti-region because in many cases things _are_ best delivered through regions, regardless of how your organization is structured. But the current set-up makes the BCA seem very unwieldy at times.

 

[hannahb]

For example, five regions that all reinvent the wheel with regards to certain things... That also bloats what people _think_ of as the BCA - suddenly instead of one Conservation and Access Officer, you have a working group with one BCA Conservation and Access person, five regional Conservation and Access people, seven national body Conservation and Access people...

In what ways are the regions re-inventing the wheel, and in what ways are clubs duplicating the efforts of the regional and national organisations? This sounds like a good opportunity to reduce workload on volunteers across the board.

Your description of this conservation and access working group is exactly what I mean about the BCA seeming large and complicated. If it's not "BCA", then what is it?

 

[thehungrytroglobite]

In what ways are the regions re-inventing the wheel, and in what ways are clubs duplicating the efforts of the regional and national organisations? This sounds like a good opportunity to reduce workload on volunteers across the board.

Your description of this conservation and access working group is exactly what I mean about the BCA seeming large and complicated. If it's not "BCA", then what is it?

A previous grassroots NGO (which grew rapidly to having hundreds of people involved) that I worked in had a similar system to the one that I *think* is being described here. We'd have a central group of working group 'leads' as such eg. welfare lead, public engagement lead, social media lead, events lead, etc etc. All of these working groups then had a team of about 3-10 members who were all from different 'regional' groups. The point in this is that everything got done on a national basis, the groups stayed in touch with each other, while regional groups were in charge of more local activities. Once a month we'd have an online meeting where everyone could join (not just team leads) and we used Slack to coordinate online with each other and between groups. The system wasn't without its flaws, but it worked really well for a time and made a lot of sense for functioning well as a semi-decentralised body (I think we could have benefitted from further decentralisation earlier on, but that's pointless hindsight now).
I don't know the ins and outs of the BCA but it's worth keeping in mind that this organisation was extremely different to the BCA, was a lot busier and churning out many different tasks to meet different objectives on a daily basis. So it isn't necessarily a 'one size fits all' approach.
I would be interested to know a little more about the BCA's structure of organisation and communication. Do all of these 'working groups' meet regularly and actively? If not, are they somewhat redundant? Is an online system such as Slack used for regular communication *between* groups? Does the BCA have clear objectives, and what are these objectives? Are active steps being taken towards them?

I have been a very active caver in the UK for 5 years now and don't know the answer to any of these questions. I don't have an opinion on all of the politics because I don't feel like I know enough to form a fair opinion so would rather keep out of it. But I would be curious to know a little bit more about how the BCA functions as an organisation as I have not heard much about it before

 

[mikem]

The only way BCA is going to provide more "service" is to employ someone full time (or two half contracts) to do secretarial job (inc. Minutes, marketing and newsletter), membership & quals admin (last bit already being done) - BMC & British canoeing have multiple full-time staff, but 10 times the membership

 

[aricooperdavis]

The only way BCA is going to provide more "service" is to employ someone full time (or two half contracts) to do secretarial job (inc. Minutes, marketing and newsletter), membership & quals admin (last bit already being done)

From the IT side of things we are already finding more and more that the paid secretaries can do, which is absolutely brilliant.

 

[Badlad]

I'll have a go at explaining a little bit about the workings of BCA. I spent five or six years as an officer/representative at BCA and it took at least that long to even start to understand what it was and how it worked.

The BCA is a national federation of bodies with an interest in the underground. It struggles to understand whether that means it is a governing body to the sport or not. It has struggled to answer questions of whether it represents all cavers and those with an interest in the underground or just those who are members. It has struggled to define a vision for itself despite efforts trying. It has a long complex constitution supported by a more detailed manual of operations. It has some totally worthwhile aims and guiding principals but how much effort it spends on achieving them is moot.

In my experience, at times, every word and nuance of the constitution holds the utmost significance and importance. This is usually when a particular group or individual want to delay or undermine efforts to modernise and change. At other times the constitution is not so gospel.

There is an executive of three, a chair, secretary and treasurer. They are tasked with the administrative business of the association and operate under the direction of the national council. They should work within the framework of the manual of operations. They are permitted to extend the executive but seldom do and consequently they have far too much to do and often a 'backs to the wall' mentality takes hold.

The national council can have around 40+members. Only half of these have a vote but all may have an influence.

There is the three executive officers
Representatives from the five regional councils
Two elected individual reps
Two elected club reps
Representatives from the constituent bodies such as BCRA, CDG, CHECC, BCRC, NAMHO, William Pengelly, Scouts, Cave instructors.

There used to be more officers with a vote until recently but these have been changed to convenors of working groups and the vote removed. However there are still a lot of non voting roles and appointments who are part of the national council. These include,

Working group convenors for C&A, Training, QMC, IT, Youth, CROW, constitution, etc
Various other roles such as reps for UIS, FSE, QMC2, Insurance, membership, training admin, library, newsletter, safeguarding, etc

Overall it is a veritable juggernaut of and organisation carrying a very small load. If you were to start from scratch today to design and build a modern representative or even governing organisation for caving and the underground world it would be very different to the one we have got I reckon.

 

[mikem]

Your basic problem is that cavers don't want to be governed, whilst it is the NGB for cave instructors. British canoeing are in a similar position, but they also have competition as well as instruction, whilst BMC separated out instruction (MLTB as was), but seem to have taken on competition.

 

[andrewmcleod]

The cave instructor side is mostly kept separate in the QMC working group.

 

[mikem]

Indeed, but it's not a full time job (although probably takes more than she's paid for)

 

[hannahb]

Thanks Badlad! That helps a lot. I'm glad it's not just me who doesn't know what the BCA is for or what it does.

Are there paid positions?

 

[mikem]

BCA was created because regional councils couldn't do certain things - mostly to do with money / funding

I believe only qualification admin & staffing the library are paid, although volunteers can claim costs

 

[Ed W]

Really saddened by the tone of much of this thread and this will probably be my last post on UK Caving. Could BCA be improved? Undoubtedly, but I am convinced that a barrage of negative statements, verging on personal attacks, against current council members will not form a sound basis for a better future.

I have never been a council member or officer of the BCA, but have attended a number of council meetings and participated in a working group and seen first hand some of the challenges that the organisation faces. I have also seen the hard work, much of it behind the scenes, by volunteers driven by the best of intentions (whether you agree with their actions or not). The way to bring about positive change is to get involved and stand on a platform of positive proposals.

I personally believe that the current lack of volunteers stems from the impression people formed during the "troubled years" described by Russel in the first post on this thread. I saw for myself the toxic culture that was at play when many good people were either hounded out of posts or put off the very idea of becoming involved. We saw people try to polarise debates, for instance trying to turn the CROW issue into a north / south battle, we saw some weaponise the constitution to prevent change whilst others threw their toys out of the pram when they didn't immediately get their own way. I think one or two of those posting on this thread could examine the role they played in the creation of that culture. Changing that corrosive atmosphere within the organisation is something that the current council and officers should be applauded for. It is not easy to do, hard to see from outside, but pays massive benefits for caving as a whole.

I see similar tactics at play here, trying to set the argument as one of youth against age experience, when just as many older council members and officers, including two chairs, felt they had no option but to step away. In some cases not just from the BCA but from caving as a whole.

BCA will improve when a greater proportion of cavers want to get involved, publically slinging mud in personal attacks against officers and council members is hardly going to encourage others to stick their heads above the parapet.

I have to note, before the incoming mud slinging, that the above post is my own personal view and not made in my current (if only for a few more days) capacity as CSCC Chair.

Ed Waters

 

[Ian Ball]

Please don't stop posting on UkCaving because of this thread Ed, you are a very welcome and informed member of the community.

 

[Wayland Smith]

Considering how many experts there are on here who know exactly how to run the Bca
It amazes me that there is so much difficulty in getting officers.
Some have "done their time," and respect to them, but there are many others who are vocal here but not offering to help.

 

[nearlywhite]

Considering how many experts there are on here who know exactly how to run the Bca
It amazes me that there is so much difficulty in getting officers.
Some have "done their time," and respect to them, but there are many others who are vocal here but not offering to help.

It's almost as if there's a group of disenchanted volunteers who have been mismanaged or forced into a path of opposition.

I didn't agree with many previous chairs and worked with many people who had opposite views to my own. About 90% of the work is uncontroversial. However this idea that 'the troubled years' are behind us is very wrong - procedures for votes and actual discussion at meetings has dramatically deteriorated. The presidential style of the exec and the refusal to follow council votes and getting away with it drove me to exasperation as well as many others.

Management to protect volunteers is extrordinarily poor and when I was hounded out while offering to stay on at P&I so they could find a volunteer (after narrowly losing the election for chair) one of the volunteers for council stated that 'that was awful, no volunteer should be treated like that. Unsurprisingly they, and many others of their generation don't want to volunteer for posts.

 

[Martin Laverty]

Really saddened by the tone of much of this thread and this will probably be my last post on UK Caving. Could BCA be improved? Undoubtedly, but I am convinced that a barrage of negative statements, verging on personal attacks, against current council members will not form a sound basis for a better future.

I have never been a council member or officer of the BCA, but have attended a number of council meetings and participated in a working group and seen first hand some of the challenges that the organisation faces. I have also seen the hard work, much of it behind the scenes, by volunteers driven by the best of intentions (whether you agree with their actions or not). The way to bring about positive change is to get involved and stand on a platform of positive proposals.

I personally believe that the current lack of volunteers stems from the impression people formed during the "troubled years" described by Russel in the first post on this thread. I saw for myself the toxic culture that was at play when many good people were either hounded out of posts or put off the very idea of becoming involved. We saw people try to polarise debates, for instance trying to turn the CROW issue into a north / south battle, we saw some weaponise the constitution to prevent change whilst others threw their toys out of the pram when they didn't immediately get their own way. I think one or two of those posting on this thread could examine the role they played in the creation of that culture. Changing that corrosive atmosphere within the organisation is something that the current council and officers should be applauded for. It is not easy to do, hard to see from outside, but pays massive benefits for caving as a whole.

I see similar tactics at play here, trying to set the argument as one of youth against age experience, when just as many older council members and officers, including two chairs, felt they had no option but to step away. In some cases not just from the BCA but from caving as a whole.

BCA will improve when a greater proportion of cavers want to get involved, publically slinging mud in personal attacks against officers and council members is hardly going to encourage others to stick their heads above the parapet.

I have to note, before the incoming mud slinging, that the above post is my own personal view and not made in my current (if only for a few more days) capacity as CSCC Chair.

Ed Waters

Really saddened if it is the tone of much of this thread that prompts Ed to say "this will probably be my last post on UK Caving" after he appears to have done so much to drain the toxin from caving in his area which seems to me to have led to much of the sniping and soreness we are still seeing, and which must have something to do with a shortage of the enthusiastic volunteers who make changes.
Some have commented that they were unaware of what BCA does. But is that BCA's fault? BCA, like the regional councils it funds, sees itself mainly as a representative body and only reluctantly accepts the national 'governing body' role that wider politics almost mandates, although Association suggests something more cooperative. In Wales, the Cambrian Caving Council has initials which correspond with at least two caving clubs and there are moves for a name change, not least because it is said that regulatory and other authorities belittle it by mistaking it just for a club. It would seem from that that a higher profile might be useful but, again, what for?
Caving, as I see it, is best as a small group activity whose participants take physical, and often intellectual or artistic, pleasure from the activity and environment involved in exploration (which may mean discovery of new passages, biota, or other features, but is just as meaningful in personal ways) underground, principally in caves, sometimes in mines, or even in other man-made structures, where the same basic techniques of progression are used. I do not applaud those who seek to evangelise 'our sport': I would seek only to demand (when required) respect for caves and their environment, and freedom for anyone who comes across caves or caving to find out more and go underground if they so wish, and being aware of their reponsibilities.
In the USA, Italy, among other counties, clubs often count include a higher affiliation in their name (NSS Sometown grottos; Club FAI Citta...): I wouldn't propose ging back to the likes of BSA-Northern Section but while the BCA, CCC, CNCC, CSCC, and DCA web sites do much to tell anyone who explores them about British caving, perhaps clubs, and their websites, could do more to acknowledge and spread information on their affiliations to their members?