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The Big Questions?

Are there any 'proper' caves on Great Orme? I went on the little tourist boat from the beach back in the summer and saw what looked like sea caves. There's nothing wrong with 'fanciful' wondering. I'm sure it's probably led to quite a few discoveries.

There are some phreatic fragments uncovered by quarrying -both Elephant Cave (limestone working) and the workings towards the old coastguard hut. 'My' area is a fair bit from there though. The main problem though, is the Orme is isolated, so there is no catchemnt apart from the limestone itself.

Assuming my 'bowl' reflects the dips of the bed, and assuming an impervious sandstone bed further down (of which there some), i envisage water sinking into the bowl, gathering above a sandstone bed and flowing along the axis of an inclined syncline towards the 'ravine'. I should really buy a geological map of the Orme.
 
I have a report by Prof. John Gunn on water-tracing experiments to Lumb Hole, which I presume is for public use, but I'd better check with him first.
 
Mr O' Doc is correct about the siting of Reservoir Hole. Magic Smoke Dig was following a scalloped wall down to more ancient parts of TFD. As for a relict continuation at high level I begin to doubt that now as the gorge has carved it away truncating the main conduit at High Country. The Silo ended under the road. I picked up a sandstone water worn rock in there indicating a past open way down from the gorge.
Also the tiny stream in the cave responds very rapidly to rain suggesting water enters the cave quite quickly in wet weather.
 
Where are the big fossil passages that must exist under east kingsdale somewhere in the middle of the bench….
What is it that suggests they must be there? I think I recall someone (Pitlamp?) suggesting recently in a thread that there could be very old drainage routes running from Gaping Gill under Ingleborough heading that way. Now that would be some cave to find ...
 
What is it that suggests they must be there? I think I recall someone (Pitlamp?) suggesting recently in a thread that there could be very old drainage routes running from Gaping Gill under Ingleborough heading that way. Now that would be some cave to find ...
King Pot interests segments of it, or did before some collapses, and there are some big fossil bits in there with end abruptly. My money (guided by people with much more knowledge than me!) is that somewhere through the middle of east kingsdale is more of that big passage which has been chopped through as Kingsdale itself has developed
 
What is it that suggests they must be there? I think I recall someone (Pitlamp?) suggesting recently in a thread that there could be very old drainage routes running from Gaping Gill under Ingleborough heading that way. Now that would be some cave to find ...

I think that was in relation to GG's North Passage or North West Extension, both being strongly guided by a combination of the NW/SE main joint trend and / or the NW/SE trend of ridges & valleys in the Silurian / Ordovician basement. Both passages are "aiming" under Ingleborough towards what would have been a proto Chapel-le-dale. The evidence is circumstantial but the idea of a sub Ingleborough ancient trunk route along the strike isn't entirely out of the question.

Some of the big / old stuff in the GG system seems on too grand a scale to be explained merely by sinks on the SE side of Ingleborough. (The present sink of Fell Beck at Main Shaft is recent, relatively speaking). Could an early (and much bigger) Chapel Beck have entered a sink in an early version of Chapel-le-Dale and flowed through the hill to form some of the older parts of the GG system, perhaps before the Anglian ice advance? There's a lot we still don't know . . .
 
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My offshoot here regarding Reservoir Hole. I did wonder if it might hamper the endless ongoing negotiations but thought well its been well aired in Peter's book, UBSS Journal, Descent , and the mega thread here previously.

The big question for Reservoir Hole really is would Longleat want to maintain ownship of the site indefinitely ? Certainly with the loss of "The Strawberry Line", the closure of the hotel, the self contained residential park out of town and the continual concern about the state of the cliffs. Personnaly I think that Cheddar is very tacky now.
 
I think that was in relation to GG's North Passage or North West Extension, both being strongly guided by a combination of the NW/SE main joint trend and / or the NW/SE trend of ridges & valleys in the Silurian / Ordovician basement. Both passages are "aiming" under Ingleborough towards what would have been a proto Chapel-le-dale. The evidence is circumstantial but the idea of a sub Ingleborough ancient trunk route along the strike isn't entirely out of the question.

Some of the big / old stuff in the GG system seems on too grand a scale to be explained merely by sinks on the SE side of Ingleborough. (The present sink of Fell Beck at Main Shaft is recent, relatively speaking). Could an early (and much bigger) Chapel Beck have entered a sink in an early version of Chapel-le-Dale and flowed through the hill to form some of the older parts of the GG system, perhaps before the Anglian ice advance? There's a lot we still don't know . . .
Would these hypothetical flows have gone towards Chapel-le-Dale or the other way towards GG? I'm not sure from what you're saying above (or are both suppositions equally valid?).
 
The simple answer is I don't know. I guess it depends on which way the hydraulic gradient would have favoured flow direction before the really big ice advance (the Anglian). Get digging and find out! ;)

All I can say is that if these large / ancient abandoned tunnels in GG maintain their trajectory beyond where cavers are presently stopped by chokes, they'd pass under Ingleborough. The next stop is Chapel-le-Dale.
 
Why is the hydrology of the Speedwell System so complicated, particularly the changing associations between Main Rising, Whirlpool Rising and Russet Well?

We may have some answers to this at the end of next month when the Badgers pump out the Rowter Hole Sump again and head into the unknown?

I keep telling myself that we were only a couple of trips away from a major discovery at the bottom of Eldon Hole. Following the discovery of Iron Age human bones and a visit to the site by Hysterical England and the Cave Archeology Group 4 years ago, what they wanted us to do to be able to keep on digging was ridiculously impractical, resulting in the whole project grinding to a halt. Just what I told my fellow diggers would happen if they insisted on reporting our find.
I love what has been done in eldon! Will digging ever start back up again there do you know?
 
I love what has been done in eldon! Will digging ever start back up again there do you know?
Some of the conditions placed on us to be able to continue the dig included only digging down in 200mm sections, as opposed to up to 1m deep sections that we were easily achieving on a good day. We then had to make a 3D scan of the dig for each 200mm of depth removed. Once the rubble was hauled into the main chamber we had to select any human looking bone samples from the many, many animal bones found in the dig, some of which were also found to be Late Iron Age, give them a basic clean with a special brush and log exactly what had been found in each 200mm section. The bones then had to be brought out of the cave and hand delivered by us to Buxton Museum where they would be logged and then sent off to either Birmingham or Nottingham for analysis. Once this was completed we would then have to wait for them to give us the OK, or not, to dig out the next 200mm.

Our digging team had little or no interest in archeology and we certainly weren't interested in the slightest in actually having to become trainee archeologists. Heaven forbid. Neither could we find an archeologist who had the slightest interest in becoming a cave digger, let alone one who would be happy to be on every digging trip, bend the rules 'a lot' on the 200mm and be able to tolerate what would likely be a never-ending stream of poor archeology puns from the rest of the team, and don't forget the 3D scanning every 200mm!

It's been 8 years since we first made the discovery of possible 'national importance'. Despite offering to take an archeologist down there when we first found the bones It took over 4 years before we could finally get the authorities to visit the site. DCRO provided their access and egress of the main shaft and the Buttered Badgers installed suitable safety measures for them to get to the bottom of the dig shaft and carry out their survey of how we could proceed. Our digging methodology was explained to them in great detail and, despite the looks on their faces suggesting they didn't really want to be there, we were encouraged by some that a positive outcome would soon follow.

More than 12 months later, and only then after some badgering (sorry), they finally came up with the plan as mentioned above. They clearly paid no attention to the practicalities of the dig and were likely only ever going to give us the standard archeological digging requirements that anyone else would have been given. Some people just don't like change. That's when we finally gave up on it and moved back to exploring the far reaches of Rowter Hole, and with some success.

I'm realistic enough to know that it would probably take a few more than a couple of trips before there was a significant breakthrough at the bottom of Eldon Hole, but maybe not that many more?

If you've been to the bottom of the shaft you will know the dig eats up a lot of scaffold tubes, fittings and boards, with significant amounts of tube and fittings used to make the doglegs. There could be more doglegs ahead. It's also eaten up a lot of diggers over the years. Due to the scale of the endeavour it was started up as a joint venture between the Buttered Badgers and the Eldon PC. About 4 months into the project and only the Badgers were left standing. I think Team Awesome were only just out of nappies at this time.

We were lucky to be able to get significant discounts on all the digging materials but it was still an expensive project. I've seen scaffolder's yards in Sheffield with less tubing on their racks than what is down Eldon Hole.

Because of all the doglegs it now needs a good sized digging team to make it efficient, and you're only likely to get those on a weekend, and only then if you have luck on your side. Towards the end, our midweek evening trips were more often taking in fresh scaffold tubes, fittings and boards or doing some tidying up of tubes and boards before the bigger weekend trips.

We would all love to get back digging in there. Unfortunately, for that to happen, the current powers-that-be would either need to have a complete change in policy, which is not very likely, or retire and be replaced with younger people who are not stuck in the Late Iron Age and may look at things differently. This is our hope. We are not holding our breaths.

You never know, we may have a back way into it from Rowter Hole next month.
 
I have always thought that the loose filled phreatic tube above the dive line in Bridge Cave runs towards Little Neath River Cave.

It's about 15 feet up the wall and would require some clever engineering to reach the digface!!
 
Some of the conditions placed on us to be able to continue the dig included only digging down in 200mm sections, as opposed to up to 1m deep sections that we were easily achieving on a good day. We then had to make a 3D scan of the dig for each 200mm of depth removed. Once the rubble was hauled into the main chamber we had to select any human looking bone samples from the many, many animal bones found in the dig, some of which were also found to be Late Iron Age, give them a basic clean with a special brush and log exactly what had been found in each 200mm section. The bones then had to be brought out of the cave and hand delivered by us to Buxton Museum where they would be logged and then sent off to either Birmingham or Nottingham for analysis. Once this was completed we would then have to wait for them to give us the OK, or not, to dig out the next 200mm.

Our digging team had little or no interest in archeology and we certainly weren't interested in the slightest in actually having to become trainee archeologists. Heaven forbid. Neither could we find an archeologist who had the slightest interest in becoming a cave digger, let alone one who would be happy to be on every digging trip, bend the rules 'a lot' on the 200mm and be able to tolerate what would likely be a never-ending stream of poor archeology puns from the rest of the team, and don't forget the 3D scanning every 200mm!

It's been 8 years since we first made the discovery of possible 'national importance'. Despite offering to take an archeologist down there when we first found the bones It took over 4 years before we could finally get the authorities to visit the site. DCRO provided their access and egress of the main shaft and the Buttered Badgers installed suitable safety measures for them to get to the bottom of the dig shaft and carry out their survey of how we could proceed. Our digging methodology was explained to them in great detail and, despite the looks on their faces suggesting they didn't really want to be there, we were encouraged by some that a positive outcome would soon follow.

More than 12 months later, and only then after some badgering (sorry), they finally came up with the plan as mentioned above. They clearly paid no attention to the practicalities of the dig and were likely only ever going to give us the standard archeological digging requirements that anyone else would have been given. Some people just don't like change. That's when we finally gave up on it and moved back to exploring the far reaches of Rowter Hole, and with some success.

I'm realistic enough to know that it would probably take a few more than a couple of trips before there was a significant breakthrough at the bottom of Eldon Hole, but maybe not that many more?

If you've been to the bottom of the shaft you will know the dig eats up a lot of scaffold tubes, fittings and boards, with significant amounts of tube and fittings used to make the doglegs. There could be more doglegs ahead. It's also eaten up a lot of diggers over the years. Due to the scale of the endeavour it was started up as a joint venture between the Buttered Badgers and the Eldon PC. About 4 months into the project and only the Badgers were left standing. I think Team Awesome were only just out of nappies at this time.

We were lucky to be able to get significant discounts on all the digging materials but it was still an expensive project. I've seen scaffolder's yards in Sheffield with less tubing on their racks than what is down Eldon Hole.

Because of all the doglegs it now needs a good sized digging team to make it efficient, and you're only likely to get those on a weekend, and only then if you have luck on your side. Towards the end, our midweek evening trips were more often taking in fresh scaffold tubes, fittings and boards or doing some tidying up of tubes and boards before the bigger weekend trips.

We would all love to get back digging in there. Unfortunately, for that to happen, the current powers-that-be would either need to have a complete change in policy, which is not very likely, or retire and be replaced with younger people who are not stuck in the Late Iron Age and may look at things differently. This is our hope. We are not holding our breaths.

You never know, we may have a back way into it from Rowter Hole next month.
Sounds to be like they have shot themselves in the foot. Important discovery to just tieing the diggers hands behind their backs would only reduce the finds there!

I have been to the bottom of eldon and the bottom of the dig and words can't describe how impressed we were. You can really see how much time, effort and money that has gone into it! We were just amazed and mind boggled at how it's been done.

We did mention how good it would be for the dig to continue but I think in today's prices, that amount of scaff bar would be extremely expensive!

Hats off to you all who were involved and I can agree that I hope to see today's diggers carry on that legacy! Fair play to you all for such a huge effort!

How long were you guys digging in their to reach that depth? Years i presume
 
We'll no doubt have similar issues with HE when we eventually get the go-ahead from the NT to build a simple shaft top on our new mine, also on Faucet Rake, and so, also technically 'within' a Scheduled Monument zone. The fact that they didn't know it was there until it collapsed, and we found and documented it for them doesn't change the fact that the Scheduling still applies. So our concrete mixes will have to be approved etc. Not surprisingly, nothing has happened in the six months since I sent in a preliminary Method Statement for construction, and the hole will now be exposed to its first proper winter without any protection. We do what we can, but trying to do things by the book always seems to screw projects up.
 
Archaeologists naturally tend to take the long view, given that a lot of the best stuff that had been happily sat in the ground for thousands of years was ruined by digging in the last two hundred by 'Antiquarians'. They will naturally prefer stuff to sit in the ground for some future archaeologist rather than be dug up today in a way that loses information - after all, if it's a thousand years old already what's another 100 years before a future archaeologist digs it up?

Sucks for the digging, of course.
 
Sounds to be like they have shot themselves in the foot. Important discovery to just tieing the diggers hands behind their backs would only reduce the finds there!

I have been to the bottom of eldon and the bottom of the dig and words can't describe how impressed we were. You can really see how much time, effort and money that has gone into it! We were just amazed and mind boggled at how it's been done.

We did mention how good it would be for the dig to continue but I think in today's prices, that amount of scaff bar would be extremely expensive!

Hats off to you all who were involved and I can agree that I hope to see today's diggers carry on that legacy! Fair play to you all for such a huge effort!

How long were you guys digging in their to reach that depth? Years i presume
See on the forum for the Eldon Hole - Trip Reports from May 2015.

I can't work out how to link it.
 
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