The Ease of Inadvertent Damage

[langcliffe]

Here's a demonstration of how damage can be caused without meaning to, or realising it. This first picture, taken by Pete Monk, shows the skeleton of the dog which may be found at the top of Dogger Bank in Shuttleworth as it was on the 1st November.

This (a little fuzzy) picture was taken by Andrew Hinde on Friday. The damage has simply been caused by people picking up the bones to have a closer look. At this rate, it will be powder within three months.

 

[rhychydwr1]

How did the dog get there?

 

[JasonC]

Dogged determination ?

.... I'll get me coat




PS no disrespect intended to Langcliffe's valid and helpful OP

 

[mrodoc]

Says it all about the Dales I am afraid. What is it about some of  the people who visit the caves up north? Slaughter Cave's dog has survived for 20 years without being touched and being in the same fragile state. I know i keep banging on about this on forums but it seems you need some kind of access control. It doesn't have to be prohibitive just sensible like Mendip. I have visited sites now made easily accessible and seen descriptions posted on how to view formations that are just plain silly if you want to avoid damage.  I have been responsible for accidental damage but this is just plain ignorance and whoever was leading the trip has a responsibility.

 

[mrodoc]

You can see the Slaughter dog at http://www.darkanddeep.co.uk/images/caving_scotland/mendips/WS-022.jpg

 

[graham]

Says it all about the Dales I am afraid. What is it about some of  the people who visit the caves up north? Slaughter Cave's dog has survived for 20 years without being touched and being in the same fragile state. I know i keep banging on about this on forums but it seems you need some kind of access control. It doesn't have to be prohibitive just sensible like Mendip. I have visited sites now made easily accessible and seen descriptions posted on how to view formations that are just plain silly if you want to avoid damage.  I have been responsible for accidental damage but this is just plain ignorance and whoever was leading the trip has a responsibility.

Pete

Surely you know that every fuckwit has an absolute right to go where the hell they choose, touch whatever they like and if they can take a guided party along and earn a few bob at the same time, well so much the better.

Do I sound bitter? Yes I am. Some of us put a lot of time and effort into trying to look after our caves.

 

[Speleotron]

Plenty of pretty caves in the Dales in good condition! The trade routes are sometimes trashed but off the beated track theres loads of pretties.

 

[georgenorth]

Says it all about the Dales I am afraid. What is it about some of  the people who visit the caves up north?

Eh? A quick trawl of the conservation section of this forum will show that mindless idiocy is far from being restricted to the Dales.

Whilst I'm sure that few would argue with your point that gates and leader systems protect caves I for one am glad that the caves up here are free from such restricions (besides which they would be completely impossible to impose - anybody for a gate over GG main shaft for instance?)

 

[graham]

Eh? A quick trawl of the conservation section of this forum will show that mindless idiocy is far from being restricted to the Dales.

Sad but true

Whilst I'm sure that few would argue with your point that gates and leader systems protect caves I for one am glad that the caves up here are free from such restrictions.

Right, so you privilege your convenience over and above the protection of our caves? OK.

(besides which they would be completely impossible to impose - anybody for a gate over GG main shaft for instance?)

No imagination! There is more than one way to do these things. But to look at this particular example, it is pretty unlikely that any human agency available to cavers could have a greater impact on main shaft and main chamber than a couple of winter floods. However, as for the rest of the system, I am sure I've seen photos that show that some of it was quite pretty, once.

 

[Fulk]

However, as for the rest of the system, I am sure I've seen photos that show that some of it was quite pretty, once.

Yeah, East Passage for a  start.

And if you've got a copy of Underground Adventure, check the picture opposite p. 38, of stals in Hensler's Passage, which must be 3 ft long . . . but they'd gone by the time I went there for the first time (on laddrers, down either Bar or Dis ? so that was a long time ago). But don't look at the picture of the Colonnade (different cave, of course!) ? it would break your heart to compare it with what you see now.

 

[mrodoc]

The argument re trade routes does not hold water. What about Easter Grotto in Ease Gill? Trashed by the time I first saw it in 1970 and not as far as I know really a 'trade route'.  The trouble is once a passage is degraded nobody following on realises how degraded it has become. For instance there used to be a 1.5 metre totem pole stal in Swildons Streamway below the Twenty well out of the way of passing cavers and pretty stoutly formed. Sometime in the 70's it was smashed for no good reason that I can see.

 

[langcliffe]

I believe that in general, the situation is a lot better today - people are far more careful and the caving fraternity as a whole do not go in for the sort of vandalism exemplified by the destruction of the twin stalactites in Hensler's (although there will always be exceptions).

However, the fragility of formations is obvious. The point that this thread was trying to make was that not everyone is yet aware of the fragility of other parts of the cave environment. The dog skeleton in Shuttleworth is an obvious example - it has probably been there for well over a thousand years, and it is obviously a lot more fragile than the sheep bones we find at the bottom of practically every surface shaft.  It is an important feature of the cave and should be preserved as such.

The fragility of floor sediments is another example. Once trampled on much of their value (and in many cases, their beauty) is destroyed.

I will readily admit that we failed to take cognisance of such features in days gone by when exploring places such as the Far Waters, and happily ploughed along three abreast. The bottom of Pippikin would be a much nicer place if routes had been taped when it was first explored. But hopefully, we learn from our own experiences and from those of others.

It is easy to cause permanent and unnecessary damage the cave environment without realising it, and I suspect that we can all do better.

 

[droid]

Damn sensible reply there Langcliffe.

It's also worth noting the old saying that you shouldn't ascribe malice to what you could regard as incompetence...or thoughtlessness.

 

[Peter Burgess]

The point that this thread was trying to make was that not everyone is yet aware of the fragility of other parts of the cave environment.

Indeed. The clue is in the first sentence of your original post!

 

[graham]

Damn sensible reply there Langcliffe.

It's also worth noting the old saying that you shouldn't ascribe malice to what you could regard as incompetence...or thoughtlessness.

I'm not sure anyone in this thread has ascribed this to malice. Thoughtlessness, yes. Incompetence, surely. Malice, probably not.

The thing is, of these three, malice is the only one not curable through education. People have been plugging education in this context for decades and yet still stuff like this happens.

 

[Fulk]

graham quote:

I'm not sure anyone in this thread has ascribed this to malice. Thoughtlessness, yes. Incompetence, surely. Malice, probably not.

I'm afraid that there has been malice; how else would you explain the disappearance of the 'Plumber's Nightmare' (to take another example from Underground Adventure) that used to reside in Broadway, Easegill?

This convoluted mass of helictites was tucked away 'safely' in a gap between the roof and a segment of false floor. It could only have been reached and broken by a very determined effort ? there is simply no way that anyone could have crawled past it and swiped it by acident.

 

[graham]

Fulk

I was referring specifically to the damage to the dog skeleton outlined in the first post. I agree that malice has been a factor in other incidents elsewhere.

 

[Fulk]

Sorry

 

[Alex]

Yes lets lock all our caves and ensure the caves are fully protected as no one would ever get to see those protected formations. Caves are here as I see for public use, not just a select few. We don't block off an entire town center because a bus shelter gets trashed. I am sorry it drives me mad when people use conservation as an excuse to lock caves, there are far better ways out there to protect caves such as what Lancliffe is doing i.e. education, rather then locking it for only those "select" few.

Locking caves if the landowner has not asked for it, in my eyes is elitism nothing more. Now I may agree to locking off particular sections of caves that have been pushed and contain scientific interest but that should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances.

 

[graham]

If it is elitist to keep fuckwits who do damage out of our caves then, yes, I am elitist.

And proud of it.