The Ease of Inadvertent Damage

[cap n chris]

it drives me mad when people use conservation as an excuse to lock caves, there are far better ways out there to protect caves such as what Lancliffe is doing i.e. education

Only works on those who listen and take heed. It certainly wouldn't count as "protection", in my book.

Please list any methods which do - it would be very helpful to hear of your better ways.

Caves are here as I see for public use

Wow. Really?

 

[dunc]

Stick a locked gate on every cave, limit the number of trips to once every other month, party size 5 maximum including leader - who shall be appointed by a very select committee. Simple! I'm sure it'll encourage more people into the sport.

 

[Roger W]

Hum!  This topic seems to be going over ground that must have been covered a hundred times before...

To divert attention from these well-worn arguments - here's a quotation from "Beijing Old & New," talking about the Yunshui (Clouds and Rain) Grotto on the western slopes of Shangfang Mountain.  It says:-

"Proceeding further amidst the echoes of this strange music, one will arrive at the 'Mountain of Gongs,' a group of stalactites which vibrate like stone chimes when struck lightly, but which sound like Chinese gongs when struck harder..."

Question:  should every caver carry a xylophone hammer with them to identify more of these subterranean musical wonders?

 

[Peter Burgess]

Stick a locked gate on every cave, limit the number of trips to once every other month, party size 5 maximum including leader - who shall be appointed by a very select committee. Simple! I'm sure it'll encourage more people into the sport.

I'll tell you what encouraged me into the sport - it was the prospect of exploring and observing places that were natural "wonders" in the case of caves or "windows into the past" in the case of mines. If all there was to see was a collection of filthy, vandalised and empty holes in the ground, I imagine I would probably be an avid allotment gardener by now, and would be thinking as I topped up the compost heap of my brief foray into the underground world as a bad sad memory.

The sites I most enjoy visiting today are those where, largely through responsible controls, I can still see stuff largely unchanged since it was first found. In the case of the dog bones, its a sad example of what can happen, even when with the best of intentions, the things we want to see are not given the protection they probably needed.

So now with hindsight we know what can happen with bones, what should be done to prevent this happening somewhere else?

 

[Pete Brookdale]

Why not remove the skeleton and place it in a museum to preserve it?

 

[Blakethwaite]

but it seems you need some kind of access control.

Doesn't the cave in question have access restrictions?

 

[Alex]

Caves are here as I see for public use

Wow. Really?

Caves are for public use with restrictions from land owner of course, but are cavers not the public?  How are cave's different from public foot paths on their land except you need more then hiking shoes to traverse them.

As for other techniques other then education, there are the traditional routes of taping etc.

Locking caves though should not be one, why spoil it for everyone and let those toe rags who damage them, win.

P.s. I have been in many caves that still look pretty pristine to me and have been open for years with no locks. So it is a serious extradition when you say that all caves will be trashed if not locked and become vandalized empty holes in the ground.

 

[graham]

Caves are for public use with restrictions from land owner of course, but are cavers not the public?  How are they different from public foot paths on thier land except you need more then hiking shoes to traverse them.

Doubtless you are aware that footpaths require active maintenance, that a lot of time and money goes into maintaining, especially, paths like the Pennine Way.

It is also the case that the 'at risk' areas of caves are very low energy environments, that the impact made by visitors is, relatively speaking, much higher than that made on mountain paths.

Putting these two things together shows that delicate caves actually require more management and more care than public footpaths.

As for other techniques other then education, there are the traditional routes of tape etc.

And access controls. As noted, above delicate caves are more susceptible to 'wear and tear' than other environments, thus, controlling the number of visitors is an excellent and necessary conservation technique.

Locking caves though should not be one, why spoil it for everyone and let those toe rags who damage them, win.

Because, as explained, not spoiling in it for everyone actually does spoil it for everyone.

 

[Peter Burgess]

P.s. I have been in many caves that still look pretty pristine to me and have been open for years with no locks. So it is a serious extradition when you say that all caves will be trashed if not locked and become vandalized empty holes in the ground.

Assuming this is in response to my last comment, it isn't actually what I wrote or what I meant.

 

[graham]

P.s. I have been in many caves that still look pretty pristine to me and have been open for years with no locks. So it is a serious extradition when you say that all caves will be trashed if not locked and become vandalized empty holes in the ground.

Can you be so certain? I went down a certain cave very shortly after it was discovered. I went down again some time later with some first-time visitors who were stunned by its beauty yet I could see where - and how - accidental damage had already happened. And yes, the nature of the damage was such that I can be certain that it was accidental.

So it is not a serious extradition (whatever it is that you mean by that) to state that damage will inevitably happen and will inevitably increase over time. Low energy environments can recover but that generally requires them being left alone for a long time.

 

[langcliffe]

Why not remove the skeleton and place it in a museum to preserve it?

That is a good question, but I can see a number of reasons why such a strategy wouldn't be appropriate:

1. As you can see from the photographs, minor handling has already transformed a lot of it to powder, and it couldn't have been moved without destroying it.

2. Outside the cave, it totally loses its context. The interest is not that it is an old dog skeleton, but the fact that it is in what is now a fairly inaccessible cave, and that it seems to have been active in the cave, so was relatively uninjured after it entered.

3. I really cannot see a museum giving house room to the tatty remains of a Canis lupus familiaris.

4. The skeleton is worthy of our concern, but no more than the rest of the cave - including the formations and the sediments. We can't put it all in a museum.

I think that a better strategy would be to regard the caves as proxy museums, and their features as the exhibits, and to treat them with the appropriate respect

 

[TheBitterEnd]

Has any organisation ever published some kind of "caving country code"?

 

[graham]

Has any organisation ever published some kind of "caving country code"?

Yes, the NCA (as was) BCA (as is) has published several over the years. On the BCA website at present you will find this one. For a fuller look you need the Cave Conservation Handbook though I am not sure whether that is still in print or not.

The BCA's Conservation and Access Home Page will tell you that another version, the Minimal Impact Caving Code is still under review. This has been the case for some years. The reason is simple, the C&A committee cannot get agreement from the Training committee as the latter insist on much larger party sizes, without which so many of their members cannot run viable businesses.

 

[TheBitterEnd]

Ahh, I see. So once it is agreed and signed off, would it be a good idea to have it writ large on every permit, posted on every club hut wall and even laminated and posted in the entrance of caves (or at least the delicate ones) - after all, the various conservation bodies seem to be quite keen on laminated information boards.

 

[cap n chris]

Unlike clubs (as clearly demonstrated by TheBitterEnd's question) qualified caving leaders are required, as a matter of course, to make the topic of conservation an element of every beginner's trip they present, as per their BCA/NCA certification training. Club cavers have the same, if not greater (because of privileged access to otherwise restricted caves), responsibility towards conservation but since it is often the case that no-one fulfils a conservation role within them, it's hardly surprising that many members appear unaware of the hundreds of pages of conservation literature easily, and in most cases freely, available to them.

This results in an irony that, unlike proper cavers, professionally-led beginners are receiving consistently better education regarding the importance of protecting formations (debatably meaning they might be more useful as custodians of delicate environments than some pukka club members?).

QED, education does not protect caves since many cavers are totally uneducated in conservation.

 

[Peter Burgess]

There may be no procedural requirement for "clubs" (or more importantly individuals) to brief beginners in such things, but I can assure you that a lot do as a matter of course. EVERY single party of the public visiting the Reigate Caves is told right at the beginning of the visit that they should not touch the walls and why this is so. Likewise, I do the same for any new caver I am taking underground with regard to whatever feature requires protection, whether sensitive mining features, or natural curiosities such as calcite formations. So Chris, it isn't necessarily that obvious that better "education" is passed out by professionally-led beginners, as we are all capable of doing this, and many of us do.

Addendum: This post was in response to the previous one by Chris, which has now been substantially altered, rendering MY response looking a bit odd!

 

[langcliffe]

the various conservation bodies seem to be quite keen on laminated information boards.

After considerable discussion based around whether a) it would be too intrusive, b) some cavers might take it the wrong way, a small sign has been discretely installed in Shuttleworth at the start of the formations, courtesy of Natural England.

Photograph: Tony Brown​

Personally, I didn't think that cavers would have any objection at all. Even if an individual doesn't need reminding  himself, he will be aware that some people will benefit from such a notice.

 

[cap n chris]

I can assure you that a lot do as a matter of course.

But a lot do not, as a matter of course, judging by the evidence available to the contrary.

 

[Peter Burgess]

And you can state with authority that every professional caver does the same? I'd hazard a guess that a proportion don't from time to time, or don't get the message across particularly well. Trying to pin a badge on one group as being better at it than another doesn't really help.

Neither does editing* earlier posts after they have elicited a pertinent response! I note that the word "obviously" has disappeared. Maybe forum posts should be taped to avoid damage as well.

* equates to virtually re-writing !

 

[TheBitterEnd]

... QED, education does not protect caves since many cavers are totally uneducated in conservation.