The Ease of Inadvertent Damage

[cap n chris]

And you can state with authority that every professional caver does the same? I'd hazard a guess that a proportion don't from time to time, or don't get the message across particularly well. Trying to pin a badge on one group as being better at it than another doesn't really help.

Of course I can't, Peter; what I can state is that NCA/BCA training makes it an article of faith that all lead trips specifically include conservation as a topic to be covered.... whereas I have not read of any clubs having such a stipulation; therefore it is easy to cite the former example as arguably better than the latter, when it comes to the topic in question (namely educating cavers of the importance of conservation in order to improve preservation).

Conservation-taping of topics is an excellent idea, btw.

 

[kay]

Club cavers have the same, if not greater (because of privileged access to otherwise restricted caves), responsibility towards conservation but since it is often the case that no-one fulfils a conservation role within them....

An approach would be that before a club is accepted as a "bone fide caving club" for permit purposes, it should present evidence of taking conservation seriously, eg having someone fulfil the conservation role, or having instructions for leaders that include the requirement to remind people of conservation. Probably wouldn't go down very well with cavers!

Could permits come with  a summary of specific conservation issues for that particular cave (Although Shuttleworth has had a lot of publicity, maybe some of those visiting hadn't read the articles, and just knew it was new and pretty, and didn't realise the significance of the dog?)

Wouldn't work completely of course - look how many people tick the "I have read and accept the terms and conditions" box when internet ordering when they haven't actually read anything - but it might make some people think harder. I don't think you can divide people into "responsible cavers" and "people who don't care, and no amount of effort will change". Education does help - after all, it's only in recent years that people have realised the importance of mud.

 

[mikem]

Unfortunately in this situation, it is human nature to want to touch & experience new things. Even when you ask people not to, they still want to feel and see it for themselves, in most cases they don't intend to damage anything, but the more people who pass through the cave the more likely it is to happen.

The best example I know of a recently trashed cave is Ogof Nant Rhin, where the narrow passages mean everyone passes close to the formations - this is not a cave visited by novice groups or by huge numbers of cavers even though it is not gated, but the damage done over the last 15 years is obvious and as far as I can tell not malicious.

The indisputable fact is that caves with leader systems have suffered less damage than those for which keys are readily available and caves which are locked or have difficult access have suffered less than open sites.

I don't think it makes much difference whether the leader is professional or voluntary, leading a group gives you a higher level of responsibility, so you are more likely to mention conservation than amongst a group of mates.

Mike

N.B. Another forum I use allows you 20 minutes to make changes to your post before it is locked - after that you have to apply to an admin if you want to change it.

 

[Maisie Syntax]

Whilst on the subject of inadvertent damage in Shuttleworth, are the clog prints still intact, or have they been trashed too?

 

[graham]

Unfortunately in this situation, it is human nature to want to touch & experience new things. Even when you ask people not to, they still want to feel and see it for themselves, in most cases they don't intend to damage anything, but the more people who pass through the cave the more likely it is to happen.

In part, I blame the teaching methods that encouraged 'touchy feely' experience of the world with insufficient caveats as to when that is not appropriate.

The best example I know of a recently trashed cave is Ogof Nant Rhin, where the narrow passages mean everyone passes close to the formations - this is not a cave visited by novice groups or by huge numbers of cavers even though it is not gated, but the damage done over the last 15 years is obvious and as far as I can tell not malicious.

And the most effective ways of dealing with this type of situation are to limit numbers and to have on hand someone with experience of the cave to point out when care is needed and the best ways of tackling obstacles to minimise or eliminate accidental damage.

The indisputable fact is that caves with leader systems have suffered less damage than those for which keys are readily available and caves which are locked or have difficult access have suffered less than open sites.

Agree, but it won't stop some people continuing to dispute it.

I don't think it makes much difference whether the leader is professional or voluntary, leading a group gives you a higher level of responsibility, so you are more likely to mention conservation than amongst a group of mates.

Interesting point. I know good conscientious conservation-minded leaders who are amateur and professional. I also know of professionals who have been sanctioned, banned from caves even, for ignoring access conditions. 

 

[Bob Smith]

Am I the only one thats sees the irony in this sign?

 

[mikem]

I also know of professionals who have been sanctioned, banned from caves even, for ignoring access conditions.

But they weren't banned for allowing damage to the cave, or were they?

Mike

 

[Andy Sparrow]

I suspect that all that was needed to protect these bones was a circle of tape around them and 'please don't touch the bones' laminate.  It's amazing what a bit of tape can do.  I have a 1972 photo of the big white stal flow in Bat Passage - it has just one muddy hand print whereas today it is smothered in crap.    Not malicious damage - cavers naturally lean against this wall and don't see the consequences until it's too late.  All it ever needed was one bit of tape to divert cavers away from the formation.  Two minutes work would have done it.

 

[mikem]

Am I the only one thats sees the irony in this sign?

Cave canem, te necet lingendo - Beware of the dog, he may lick you to death

 

[mrodoc]

A few observations on cave care.  On the topic of restricted access I should  mention that there are caves in Western Australia limited to 4 trips a year maximum of 4. I was lucky enough to get a trip into one. Magnificent but interesting to see the damage probably caused by the exploration team before they put in rules on stripping to underwear and bare feet and putting in washing basins and brushes.

Secondly in Reservoir Hole Willie Stanton put (in two locations) ropes bolted to the wall in walking passage to allow cavers to pass vulnerable formations without leaning out and damaging them.

And yest I like the dog mosaic!

 

[Alex]

The indisputable fact is that caves with leader systems have suffered less damage than those for which keys are readily available and caves which are locked or have difficult access have suffered less than open sites.

Are you suggesting Mikem and Grham that almost every cave should have a leader system as this MAY reduce damage? That appears to be what you are implying. Who the heck is going to volunteer to do all this, it is sometimes hard enough to get volunteers for existing leader driven caves? There are thousands of caves up here.

Not only that but having leaders take's away some of the sport of it too, such in some caves part of the challenge is finding the way. Also with a leader it means that you cannot explore those side passages as no one else would probbably want to go down, as with a leader means you cannot have a look solo. I am not saying we should get rid of the leader system we have for current caves such as Otter. Those are rare exception where that sort of system is needed but making it wide spread is balmy!

I would say more but I would probably have better luck beating a dead donkey. At least it would be more fun, unless the donkey in question was in a cave and therefor it would have a gate over it, so I would not even be able to do that.

Now where is that donkey beating smiley? I will just head butt a wall instead 

 

[langcliffe]

I suspect that all that was needed to protect these bones was a circle of tape around them and 'please don't touch the bones' laminate.  It's amazing what a bit of tape can do.

The bones were protected with tape on the second trip in (I did it myself).

 

[mikem]

No, we're not suggesting that all caves should have leader systems, but you should at least consider whether it is advisable when opening a new passage & most passages beyond vulnerable formations will have been checked out or a decision made not to try - why should someone else who was not involved in the discovery be allowed to potentially destroy them?

Caves are nothing like public footpaths, which are designated by law, we do not have the right of entry to any of them, that is totally on the permission or ignorance of the landowner (& by ignorance I mean ignoring that we are using them, very few landowners, unless they are absent, don't have some idea what is going on on their land).

Mike

 

[graham]

I suspect that all that was needed to protect these bones was a circle of tape around them and 'please don't touch the bones' laminate.  It's amazing what a bit of tape can do.  I have a 1972 photo of the big white stal flow in Bat Passage - it has just one muddy hand print whereas today it is smothered in crap.    Not malicious damage - cavers naturally lean against this wall and don't see the consequences until it's too late.  All it ever needed was one bit of tape to divert cavers away from the formation.  Two minutes work would have done it.

That'd be in the same part of the cave where I have met a caver on the wrong side of tape (obvious, easy to see tape) calling back to his mates "No, this doesn't go!" And he wondered why we shouted at him.  :

 

[Glenn]

No, we're not suggesting that all caves should have leader systems, but you should at least consider whether it is advisable when opening a new passage & most passages beyond vulnerable formations will have been checked out or a decision made not to try - why should someone else who was not involved in the discovery be allowed to potentially destroy them?

Mike

But is there not also a question of responsibility on those that enable access to these "vulnerable formations"? Most recent discoveries in the Dales have been made from passage previously only open to divers, and the "vulnerable formations" were already known to be, er, vulnerable. And yet, access has been provided to non divers with the inevitable consequence. I'm not suggesting I know the answer to this, but it does bother me a little that, generally, the people who worry most about the potential damage to these formations, are those same people that opened the cave to the masses that will inevitably lead to that damage.

 

[Roger W]

That'd be in the same part of the cave where I have met a caver on the wrong side of tape (obvious, easy to see tape) calling back to his mates "No, this doesn't go!" And he wondered why we shouted at him.  :

Some people need educating.

Some people, I suspect, are uneducatable.

And some, I fear, seem to get their kicks out of vandalizing things that are irreplaceable.

Don't ask me how to solve this one.

And I seem to recall being told - in a UK cave - that "there used to be a whole series of stalagmites here - but they got broken off by people playing tunes on them."  Can't for the moment remember where it was, though.  Show cave, I think...

 

[mikem]

Most recent discoveries in the Dales have been made from passage previously only open to divers, and the "vulnerable formations" were already known to be, er, vulnerable. And yet, access has been provided to non divers with the inevitable consequence. I'm not suggesting I know the answer to this, but it does bother me a little that, generally, the people who worry most about the potential damage to these formations, are those same people that opened the cave to the masses that will inevitably lead to that damage.

Most diggers open access for themselves, whether they consider what will happen afterwards depends on them...

 

[Glenn]

Most recent discoveries in the Dales have been made from passage previously only open to divers, and the "vulnerable formations" were already known to be, er, vulnerable. And yet, access has been provided to non divers with the inevitable consequence. I'm not suggesting I know the answer to this, but it does bother me a little that, generally, the people who worry most about the potential damage to these formations, are those same people that opened the cave to the masses that will inevitably lead to that damage.

Most diggers open access for themselves, whether they consider what will happen afterwards depends on them...

Not on permit controlled land in the Dales, permission to dig is given on the understading that eventually, access is available for all (via the permit system).

 

[mikem]

I doubt many of them consider that whilst they are digging...

Anyway, if passages stayed pristine there wouldn't be so much incentive to keep digging...

Mike

 

[mrodoc]

I doubt many of them consider that whilst they are digging...

Anyway, if passages stayed pristine there wouldn't be so much incentive to keep digging...

Mike

You cannot be serious :-\