The Ease of Inadvertent Damage

[Andy Sparrow]

I suspect that all that was needed to protect these bones was a circle of tape around them and 'please don't touch the bones' laminate.  It's amazing what a bit of tape can do.

The bones were protected with tape on the second trip in (I did it myself).

Maybe the laminate would have done the job - tape suggest don't walk on this - perhaps a specific 'don't touch this' would have made the difference?

 

[Fulk]

Many years ago ? ?when I were a lad? ? I went with the BPC on a trip from Lancaster Hole to County Pot. The BPC guys looked after me (a mere novice/initiate) very well, they taught me to respect caves, they were great.

BUT ? when we got to the vicinity of the Painter?s Palette on the high-level route we became aware that there was somebody else in the cave; a couple of blokes were progressing through the cave at high speed (well, in caving terms) so we stood aside to let them pass. However, the lead guy grabbed a couple of stals as though they were handrails, and proceeded to walk through the Painter?s Palette as though it was just an ordinary bit of cave, saying to his pal (from memory after God knows how many years ?? but look what an effect it had on me) something on the lines of ?This used to be a nice formation ? before people started walking across it? (!!!).

One member of our party said ?Do you know who that was??, as they gaped in disbelief as they shot off past us. It seems that he was a functionary of the CNCC  . . . . . . . .

For anybody who doesn?t know the LH high-level route, at the place in question the passage is about 5?6 m wide . . .there?s no reason whatsoever to go anywhere near the PP except to look at and admire it.

This incident had a profound effect on me as a youngster, relatively new to the sport, and I admit I did not know what to make of it; at times, I have been accused of having a somewhat cavalier attitude to access restrictions in the Dales ? but if the guys who are policing the system could behave in such a crass fashion, is that surprising?

I wonder if anyone reading this thread remembers the incident.

PS The PP has recovered remarkably well ? maybe tomorrow (it?s very late) I?ll post a recent picture of it.

 

[Glenn]

Hi John, what year was that (when you were a lad)?

 

[Fulk]

Well, Glenn, it must have been mid to late 60s; I wish now that I'd kept a log of my trips back then!

Anyway, considering how this formation has been abused, it looks in reasonable condition today (this snap must have been taken  couple of years ago):

It's even got a bit of 'cave ice'.

 

[The Old Ruminator]

Ah well an excuse to put up a couple of photos.

Here is the aforementioned Slaughter doggy-

Here is Bat Passage at the time of discovery. Sure as hell it aint like that now.

Of course any decent cave should be gated. Why on earth not ? At least then if damage is done the perpetrator will be known and that in itself instils a degree of responsibility. I can just imagine what Shatter Cave would be like if there was no gate on it. And no banging on about elitism. We are hardly over run with trip requests. In my 48 years of caving ( oh dear ! ) I have seen deterioration just about everywhere. ( Do people really have to put muddy hands on Queen Victoria's head in Stoke ? Yes the touchy feely thing has a lot to do with it.

 

[Glenn]

and in 1967

 

[TheBitterEnd]

...
It is also the case that the 'at risk' areas of caves are very low energy environments, that the impact made by visitors is, relatively speaking, much higher than that made on mountain paths.
...

Been pondering the above comment and it seems like a very good distinction to use when balancing competing needs. Higher energy sections of cave - e.g active stream passage - are obviously much less likely to have pristine calcite, archaeological remains or valuable sediments.

Low energy sections of cave may well present an environment which, apart from calcite formation, is little changed over hundreds of thousands of years and has survived many ice ages and major flood events.

So, is this a useful rule of thumb when considering access control, group sizes, and just general care required by cavers? Higher energy - playground, lower energy - museum.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I really wish a great deal more care had been taken in years past in the high energy Swildon's streamway, where so much has been damaged or destroyed.

 

[TheBitterEnd]

But we either have no guidance or a compromise

 

[Peter Burgess]

I was only pointing out that these things are never black or white.

 

[graham]

It can be rather more subtle than some may think. Even in a given single passage, conditions will vary, thus the stal column vandalised in Swildons in the 70s was in the same passage as stream, but was at a level high above it that no longer floods. On the other hand I can certainly point at areas of the same passage that were identifiably altered by the 1968 flood.

The rule of thumb is a good one, though. Can anyone honestly point to any impact in the lowest three metres of the OFD II streamway that can be said to have been caused by people rather than water?

 

[IanWalker]

Good debate. This must be one of the most interesting threads on the forum for a while. 

 

[Roger W]

However, the lead guy grabbed a couple of stals as though they were handrails

Interesting comment there - how many people, I wonder, have a tendency to hold onto things as they walk along, or even when standing still?  Just glancing through my photo collection, I found quite a lot of people in widely different surroundings holding onto - or leaning on - cars, railings, trees, other people and - in one case, I'm afraid - a stal column  :-[

Why do they/we do it?  To steady ourselves?  I'm sure in a lot of cases it's done without thinking.  (I remember as a kid strolling along on a country walk, idly running my hand along a wire fence until I realised it was electrified...)  Could explain a lot of the "touchy feely" damage.  Education is so important: we need to train our young cavers not to do so many things they do without thinking above ground. 

Some great photos, by the way.  Have we got a current photo of Bat Passage to really bring home what we are talking about?

 

[dunc]

Have we got a current photo of Bat Passage to really bring home what we are talking about?

Here is Bat Passage at the time of discovery. Sure as hell it aint like that now.

I assume this is Bat Passage in GB?? Never been and unfamiliar with Mendip caves, so excuse my ignorance.
It sounds like the formations have suffered despite the cave being gated - when was it gated (particularly in relation to the discovery? of Bat Passage)? Did damage occur before gating, or after gating?

 

[graham]

Have we got a current photo of Bat Passage to really bring home what we are talking about?

Here is Bat Passage at the time of discovery. Sure as hell it aint like that now.

I assume this is Bat Passage in GB?? Never been and unfamiliar with Mendip caves, so excuse my ignorance.
It sounds like the formations have suffered despite the cave being gated - when was it gated (particularly in relation to the discovery? of Bat Passage)? Did damage occur before gating, or after gating?

As is frequently the case, most damage occurred in the period immediately after discovery. A gate was placed in the extension itself but this had to be removed, as locks don't do well that far underground, especially in muddy environments & people who couldn't keep keys clean got locked in a couple of times.

Taping took place not long after discovery & did succeed in keeping most people mostly off the white stuff (though see my comment above about people crossing clearly visible tapes.

Since the change in land ownership in 1995 when CCC Ltd took a 150 year lease on the underground from the Somerset Wildlife Trust who had just purchased the freehold of the land, the cave has been subject to a management  agreement between CCC Ltd SWT and English Nature (as was). This includes a monitoring regime which shows that under the present management strategy, very little change has taken place in the cave as a whole. There have been a number of pro-active 'clean ups' when stal has been washed, retaping as required and a systematic monitoring policy.

Even so some changes have occurred. Some well-meaning but unauthorised souls replaced some of the taping with a wall of rocks which had to be prevented from themselves toppling onto stal flows, for example. Classically, a couple of years ago someone was found to have defecated in the boulders quite close to Bat Passage. This was dealt with by students from UBSS, at my request, even though it was most definitely nothing to do with them.

So, yes, some wear and tear still takes place and we do have to actively monitor what goes on. However, the only way to prevent all wear and tear is to prevent all access and that we do not wish to do.

 

[kay]

Interesting comment there - how many people, I wonder, have a tendency to hold onto things as they walk along, or even when standing still?  ..... (I remember as a kid strolling along on a country walk, idly running my hand along a wire fence until I realised it was electrified...) 

That's an interesting comment. I think there's several reasons. 1) if I stand still for a length of time, I find my balance wavering, so it's better if I have another reference point - ie I'm leaning against something or touching something with my hand. 2) if the ground is uneven, it's easier if you have an extra reference point. 3) there is just the nice thing of letting your hand feel the passing scenery - look at the strong urge to trail your hand in the water if you're a passenger in a small boat. But I think this last is something that's more associated with steady motion, and less likely to come into play in a cave, where the most likely reason is 2) - the floor is uneven so not giving you good clues so you get extra info from your hand.

 

[mikem]

Here is the same section of Bat Passage taken in 2008, but the change in angle makes it difficult to compare:

Mike

 

[Andy Sparrow]

The badly muddied formation is the big white stal flow a bit further down the passage.  I have my 1972 photo somewhere which I will try and scan.  I don't think anyone would bother to photograph it now.

 

[peterk]

Looks like Inglesport have come down on the side of the "Gaters"

 

[Alex]

Maybe we should gate the shop, two permits a year all is allowed and a leader is required.