The forum

[Pegasus]

This is part of the reason why very few Mendip cavers regularly use this forum.

Above quoted from the meme thread

It stings to read the comment above when we try so hard to make UKC a positive online place for cavers. (Not aimed at you mikem, but the comment itself)

I'd love to know if cavers who are boycotting UKC are levelling the same standards to other platforms they use?

A quick search will highlight many articles about online bullying, toxicity and abuse on a huge range of issues from politics to body image. Without doubt, it's easy to find reasons to boycott the major social media platforms.

Compare and contrast:

UKC is run on a voluntary basis and on a not for profit basis for the use of the whole UK caving community. It's free, it's for ALL cavers. Meta, X etc are making billions.

It is owned by cavers. Have an issue? You can literally message either Tim (Badlad) or myself (Jane/Pegasus) and we will respond in person - good luck getting through to Mark Z or Elon et al.

UKC is incredibly fortunate to have a fabulous Moderation Team who hail from all areas of the country, are also volunteers and try their very best to keep UKC a safe and happy place - contrast that with other social media platforms and their standards of moderation.

A positive reminder: Despite some cavers choosing not to use UKC, plenty are (thank you!). The forum is busy, lots of new threads posted every day on a wide range of subjects (again, thank you!). Recent competitions have given away £100's worth of kit to cavers - some of the popular threads ave been viewed hundreds of thousands of times. We provide a platform for the BCA and regional councils to communicate with cavers, ditto Hidden Earth, plus so much more. We're doing OK - tell your caving mates!

...and to those of you who describe yourselves as Mendips cavers - thank you for being here -

Pegasus

 

[Shapatti]

I think it's worth noting that there is a difference between not posting on a forum but still being active, and not engaging at all.
Lurking doesn't look that good from an obvious engagement point of view, but they are at least still there consuming 'content'.

I personally can say that I lurk on here the vast majority of the time, only going to comment when I'm sufficiently driven to care about a topic, but I still sit in the background and read threads and posts.

I think UKC actually does quite well with how many UK and non-UK based cavers are actually on here.
Just that most are like me and don't really post.

 

[Pegasus]

I know there are lots of lurkers, they too are very welcome
....and most lurkers post from time to time, just like you have done now which is great, thank you.

 

[Rhys]

mikem said:
"This is part of the reason why very few Mendip cavers regularly use this forum."

In that statement, what is "this"? It's not clear to me.

 

[PeteHall]

In that statement, what is "this"? It's not clear to me.

From the context, a load of abusive "jokes" directed at a Mendip club and Mendip cavers and organisations more generally.?

A general hostility from certain quarters to the way things are done in the region and the expectation that what works in the open Dales and Peak District would also work for caves in people's back gardens?

A general hostility to older cavers from the local community from the university-educated who don't understand that not everybody shares their world view?

 

[tdobson]

Lots of cavers don't use UKCaving. Lots of mine explorers don't use Buddlepit. Lot's of people don't use online forums of any type... And frankly getting info about almost any cave in the country is usually hard work (yes yes, exceptions exist).

The better place to ask this question is... not on UKCaving! But literally to people elsewhere.

Potentially ask Mendip cavers in specific if you insist, but then the Mendip caving culture is niche to Mendip and the answer may well be - why do I need to talk to others when all my caves are local and I can get answers to my questions through my club

P.s. as a mod of forums to a fellow mod of forums, and I know this is hard, try to avoid taking stuff personally. It's brutal, and I am no better at it than anyone else, but people make throway comments (to them) that sting (to you) given how much you have invested. Try to just walk past.
I remember when one of my caving heroes publicly shamed me in a comment online (probably inadvertently, maybe not realising how much respect I had for them). Life is long, life is sweet, UKCaving has its place and is there for the people it's there for.

 

[2xw]

I'd challenge Mikems original statement and the implication that he (or the moderators above) represent the Mendip caving community.

 

[mikem]

If you actually read what I wrote (above has been quoted without it's original context) you'd see that I specifically said that we don't represent the wider community.

 

[2xw]

From the context, a load of abusive "jokes" directed at a Mendip club and Mendip cavers and organisations more generally.?

Satire can feel abusive if you are the butt of it

A general hostility from certain quarters to the way things are done in the region and the expectation that what works in the open Dales and Peak District would also work for caves in people's back gardens?

reasonable point of discussion

A general hostility to older cavers from the local community from the university-educated who don't understand that not everybody shares their world view?

If you force your world view on everyone else by means of a public email you should expect to be mocked for it if people disagree with you and not be so soft. If you throw a rock at someone you can't complain if they throw it back.

 

[mikem]

The forum is a lot less abusive than it used to be, but many older cavers won't engage again because of that history (mind you, some of them are effectively still banned, as they can't be bothered to reapply).

It wasn't a public email, it was sent to members of the club.

 

[Goydenman]

Pegasus and team Ithink you do an amazing job.. and it must take a lot of work. I for one am very thankful

 

[Ian Ball]

x2

 

[spelfish]

Pegasus and team Ithink you do an amazing job.. and it must take a lot of work. I for one am very thankful

Totally agree. Similarly that the level of abuse is much reduced.

 

[A_Northerner]

I value UKC highly as a place where I can have a discussion with actual human beings, as opposed to navigating the hordes of bots on other platforms.

 

[mikem]

Interestingly, those top 20 posters contributed over 100,000 of the total messages, so more than 25% - how can that be considered representative of the whole community?

Whilst there are 6,600 members, which is surprisingly close to the BCA total, that does include people who no longer cave (some of whom are still in BCA and others who aren't), double identities (who've set up extra accounts for various reasons, but mostly to do with losing their email access), bots and foreign cavers. I don't know if it includes ones that have been deleted.

 

[The Old Ruminator]

As a Mendip Caver for over 60 years I continue to use the forum and splodge my photos all over it. Over the years this has brought me into conflict with other Mendip cavers. Some actively do dislike the forum or perhaps forums in general but offer no particular reason other than it appeared to be pro Cro. ( sic ) . Northern bias or whatever. Mikem will know that Mendip cavers are rather " clicky ". They like their secrets and use private digging blogs. We are not the wide open moors and hills like Yorkshire and Wales. I guess it makes us more parochial in our ways. Strangely I have little social contact with most Mendip cavers. I have never been on a " club trip ". I dont do club dinners etc either. I am only known to most Mendip cavers through my many mishaps ( another today). Its far worse in the diving world. Research, videos and images pile up on Facebook. Yet we have a worldwide database in Wrecksite to preserve these things. ( I am a partner ). I did a talk at the Tech Diving Conference this year to 200 delegates. Almost begging them to use Wrecksite. Now in fact its got even worse.
Anyway I digress. You have the wonderful section for our better cave images. Its horribly under used. I bang my head against the wall to show how easy cave photography can be. I must account for half the images on there. Not because I am a good photographer or use complex set ups and equipment. I do it to show how simple it is. ( more incoming from today ). I do hugely long digging sagas. Over 100,000 views for Reservoir Hole. Same with the Mineshafts , QWUH and wherever I am. Ask any club journal editor like Peter Glanvill. Its a constant struggle for copy. ( Some nice ones from me in this months Chelsea journal ) . Ultimately I struggle to reason all of this . Cavers are hardly the shy and retiring types. The term " share "now seems only to apply to the wretched Facebook. I really cant see how the trend can be reversed. You can hardly find fault on here. Its a " Forum " and that implies an interchange of views and ideas. Of course you won't agree with all of it. So what as long as you have a good mix but that means contributers. Are our egos so fragile that we feel we might be rebuffed in some way ? Our photos criticised ? Do what you want there but try to be differant. There is really no right and wrong way. The dreaded " formulaic " is my pet hate. Maybe the over reliance on AI editing. But thats me. I am neither right or wrong in my views. They are mine.
So how can our forums survive ? There is very little the mods can do. Its up to the rest of us to contribute. Sadly its a growning trend. I also have the UK Bottle Collectors Forum yet where does it all go ? Facebook with such a plethora of groups you could never cover them all. Here its one place for all. You even now have the Bottle Collectors Group and The Real Bottle Collectors Group. So reminiscent of the bit in Pythons Life of Brian. Between them both thay have far more posts than the UK Bottle Forum. No I cannot explain it.
Anyway just back from digging ( sore finger ). Loads of photos to download and splodge.

 

[The Old Ruminator]

Now super splodged on the Mendip section.

 

[marsrat]

The forum allows cavers across the UK to share and discuss ideas without having to sit in some random hut on the weekend. The aggy project wouldn’t be where it is without UKC, where a fair few of our diggers were connected through the forums. I can probably speak for many who are quietly appreciative for yous work on the forum, thank you for creating and maintaining such a great shared space!

If we ever bump into each other, remind me to grab each one of yous a pint.

 

[bagpuss]

It's a shame the local forum sections aren't more active (but not aware of history of what took place) I think quite a few clubs have Facebook groups these days which takes away some of the discussion and trip reports which might have ended up here in the past.

 

[bagpuss]

As a Mendip Caver for over 60 years I continue to use the forum and splodge my photos all over it. Over the years this has brought me into conflict with other Mendip cavers. Some actively do dislike the forum or perhaps forums in general but offer no particular reason other than it appeared to be pro Cro. ( sic ) . Northern bias or whatever. Mikem will know that Mendip cavers are rather " clicky ". They like their secrets and use private digging blogs. We are not the wide open moors and hills like Yorkshire and Wales. I guess it makes us more parochial in our ways. Strangely I have little social contact with most Mendip cavers. I have never been on a " club trip ". I dont do club dinners etc either. I am only known to most Mendip cavers through my many mishaps ( another today). Its far worse in the diving world. Research, videos and images pile up on Facebook. Yet we have a worldwide database in Wrecksite to preserve these things. ( I am a partner ). I did a talk at the Tech Diving Conference this year to 200 delegates. Almost begging them to use Wrecksite. Now in fact its got even worse.
Anyway I digress. You have the wonderful section for our better cave images. Its horribly under used. I bang my head against the wall to show how easy cave photography can be. I must account for half the images on there. Not because I am a good photographer or use complex set ups and equipment. I do it to show how simple it is. ( more incoming from today ). I do hugely long digging sagas. Over 100,000 views for Reservoir Hole. Same with the Mineshafts , QWUH and wherever I am. Ask any club journal editor like Peter Glanvill. Its a constant struggle for copy. ( Some nice ones from me in this months Chelsea journal ) . Ultimately I struggle to reason all of this . Cavers are hardly the shy and retiring types. The term " share "now seems only to apply to the wretched Facebook. I really cant see how the trend can be reversed. You can hardly find fault on here. Its a " Forum " and that implies an interchange of views and ideas. Of course you won't agree with all of it. So what as long as you have a good mix but that means contributers. Are our egos so fragile that we feel we might be rebuffed in some way ? Our photos criticised ? Do what you want there but try to be differant. There is really no right and wrong way. The dreaded " formulaic " is my pet hate. Maybe the over reliance on AI editing. But thats me. I am neither right or wrong in my views. They are mine.
So how can our forums survive ? There is very little the mods can do. Its up to the rest of us to contribute. Sadly its a growning trend. I also have the UK Bottle Collectors Forum yet where does it all go ? Facebook with such a plethora of groups you could never cover them all. Here its one place for all. You even now have the Bottle Collectors Group and The Real Bottle Collectors Group. So reminiscent of the bit in Pythons Life of Brian. Between them both thay have far more posts than the UK Bottle Forum. No I cannot explain it.
Anyway just back from digging ( sore finger ). Loads of photos to download and splodge.

As a shy/retiring type I like forums and club Facebook groups, too shy to go to big Mendip events, struggle in crowds and can't stay in huts for similar reasons. Best/ only place to get info sometimes!