The origins of the Barrel Knot

[Bob Mehew]

Can any one point me to the origins of the Barrel knot? Ashley's Book of Knots #295 describes a somewhat different knot to that used to connect a cows tail to a crab. Alpine Caving Techniques does not appear to reference it. I can see the relationship to the Capuchin knot which is used as a stopper knot (but not mentioned in either book). So who invented it? And who came up with the variations of two or three turns in the body of the knot?

 

[LadyMud]

Apparently it's also known as a Blood Knot.
That's what Wiki says, so it must be true

 

[Long Drop]

In my version of a blood knot the tails both stick out at right angles from the middle of the knot. In a barrel knot the tails stick out of the ends of the knot, in line with the rope being tied. So, I'd say they were completely different knots.

 

[MarkS]

I think what cavers usually refer to as a barrel knot is often known as a poacher's knot or a scaffold knot. It certainly isn't a blood knot.

 

[alanw]

Apparently it's also known as a Blood Knot.
That's what Wiki says, so it must be true

The Blood Knot, as shown above has the tail doubling back over the top.

Animated Knots calls the barrel knot with two turns the Poacher’s Knot, and references Ashley #409, Wikipedia calls it the Double overhand noose.

With three turns, it's the Triple overhand noose or Scaffold knot (ABOK # 1120).

 

[Bob Mehew]

Thanks alanw. To emphasise the difference, Ashley's Book of Knots has the blood / barrel knot (ABOK #295) joining two (fishing) lines together. As Alan states the Poachers knot (ABOK #409) covers the two turn barrel knot and the Scaffold knot (ABOK #409) covers the three turn barrel knot. There is also an alternative Gallows knot (ABOK #1121) to the Scaffold knot which is tied with the turns in reverse order. I have to admit I got tired of reading Ashley but did not think to google search the answer.

 

[Babyhagrid]

I've always heard of it being called a scaffold knot. And that a barrel knot is used by cavers to refer to everything that's not a barrel knot

 

[mikem]

Barrel is another name for a Blood knot, but not the same as what we mean by it. Merriam Webster dictionary give both definitions of tying one. Ours comes from the Double Fisherman's (which is an alternative way to join 2 lines, AKA double Englishman's bend & grapevine bend), by way of the Stopper knot (a name that also covers a variety of different ways of doing the job...) Strangle knot is the same thing tied around something other than the rope. Poacher's Knot is "also known as a Strangle Snare and a Double Overhand Noose". "The Scaffold Knot is similar to the Poacher's Knot but it has an extra turn. It is sometimes called a Triple Overhand Noose, whereas the Poacher's is sometimes called a Double, or Two-Turn, Scaffold". Maybe it should be: "As to why the double overhand noose is sometimes referred to as a double overhand hitch, if the bight of such a noose is clipped into a carabiner and tightened it does the job that a hitch normally would."

History : The scaffold knot was described in Denis Diderot's Encyclopedie of 1762.

Scaffold Knot

Scaffold Knot Aplications : This is a tough noose knot, which may be protected against wear due to chafing by the insertion of a plastic or ...

knots-guide.blogspot.com

History: The Poacher’s Knot (ABOK # 409, p 65.) is described by Ashley as made of horsehair and used to trap Woodcock or Partridge. It is hard to imagine using either the material or the technique today. However, Selden describes using the knot as a Halyard Knot on page 16 of their HINTS AND ADVICE on rigging and tuning of your Seldén mast. When used in this way it will almost certainly have to be cut off – untying it will be impractical.

Poacher’s Knot

Makes a very secure loop in the end of a piece of rope. Also known as a Strangle Snare and a Double Overhand Noose – because the knot tied round the standing end is known as a Strangle Knot.

www.animatedknots.com

 

[mikem]

Whatever you call them, "our" barrel, the Blood & fisherman's all developed from the overhand knot.

Double fisheman's is listed as an ancient knot. A triple fisherman's (equivalent to scaffold knot) is recommended for joining spectra / dyneema cords.

 

[Pony]

Blood knot is a fishing knot for tying the hook. The turns are started at the hook and are made away from it with the tail returning over the turns and the tail fed through the gap between the hook eye and first turn. For extra security the tail can be fed between the turns and the initial returning tail after. It's a completely different knot to the barrel, having the tail returning externally and turns being made from the starting point. Personally, I wouldn't consider using it in caving context.

 

[pwhole]

The barrel knot is virtually impossible to tie with monofilament as you can't maintain the coil opening to thread it through. I used to hate the diagrams in fishing books that used this wonderfully limp line to demonstrate how to tie these fiendish knots, and then you'd try it yourself and just give up and do a blood knot instead. Of course if you bought the classic 'Matchman' hook tyer...unchanged in 40 years! We just need a monster version for 10mm rope

https://www.matchmansupplies.co.uk/specialist-barbel/hooks/hook-tyers/matchman-hook-tyer

 

[mikem]

Most others do not call what we (& climbers) do a barrel knot, fisherman call the blood knot a barrel knot.

& this is something different again:

Barrel Hitch

The Barrel Hitch is generally used when lifting a barrel upright and can be used when there is liquid in an Open Barrel.

www.animatedknots.com

 

[pwhole]

I really like that knot, apart from the Bowline at the end

 

[Mark Wright]

We did some research on the correct name for the knot when we started writing the IRATA ICOP in 2010 and the conclusion we all came to was that it is a Scaffold Knot. One end of the rope would have been thrown over the Hangman's Scaffold and then the knot tied at ground level. The rope would then be pulled through until the knot tightened on the Scaffold above and then a noose would have been tied at the other end with the appropriate number of turns for hanging either a man or a woman.

The more common 'double twist' we referred to as a Scaffold Knot and a triple twist was a Triple or Triple Twist Scaffold Knot. I don't remember anything being published but I think the triple twist was slightly more energy absorbing than the double, but only very slightly.

Most rope access technicians incorrectly referred to it as a Barrel Knot, and I imagine many still do.

Whilst I would still consider the ABOK as the knot tyers bible, it is a bit dated. Clifford Ashley died long before the types of rope we use today were even invented.

Geoffrey Budworth, who co-founded the IGKT has written some excellent knot books. The Complete Book of Knots and Ropework is my favourite, and the one I usually turn to as a reference. Geoffrey Budworth calls it a Scaffold Knot and a Multiple Scaffold Knot for the one with the extra twist.

Geoffrey Budworth also made a number of corrections to later editions of the ABOK.

 

[mikem]

Actually barrel knot is the name used by decorative knot tyers, who may use two, three or four wraps:

 

[Badlad]

That's a Stopper Knot isn't it?

 

[Mark Wright]

Actually barrel knot is the name used by decorative knot tyers, who may use two, three or four wraps:

The double wrap version of this knot was also included in the IRATA ICOP as a rope end stopper knot, as Badllad mentions. The double wrap version is effectively Half a Double Fisherman knot, or Half a Triple Fisherman knot if it has 3 wraps.

 

[pwhole]

When trying rings onto fishing-rods ('whipping'), the last few turns include a short loop of another thread so that the end of the whipping thread could then be pulled back under the turns to lock them and give an almost-invisible finish. At five mins in:

 

[mikem]

That's a Stopper Knot isn't it?

Yes, but there are multiple knots given that name. It's presumably where we got barrel from (same knot, but tied back on itself)

 

[mikem]

This site has different barrels at 5 & 13 - capuchin is blood knot, other is ours (although different websites also confuse the capuchin - as have previous discussions on here):

What is Macrame Art?

Macrame : Art of Tying Decorative Knots Macrame is a textile that does not require any needle. Simply by using different knotting techniques, you can create a cascade of patterns, which you can use to create

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