Thefts from Caves (was From Giants Hole)
- Thread starter Phild
- Start date
pwhole
Well-known member
But dozens of caves and mines in Derbyshire have gates, walls or other obstacles to restrict access - nobody ever complains about these, and just accepts them as part of the deal. So why the resistance any time a new one is proposed? Especially ones that are genuinely at risk - and in some cases very important hydrologically, as Giants is.
I'm not really hearing any viable arguments against it, other than us simply ignoring it on some sort of abstract 'purity principle'. Should the ones at Holme Bank not have been replaced, for example? More pertinently, using the same logic, should mine or natural shafts be left ungrilled?
I'm not really hearing any viable arguments against it, other than us simply ignoring it on some sort of abstract 'purity principle'. Should the ones at Holme Bank not have been replaced, for example? More pertinently, using the same logic, should mine or natural shafts be left ungrilled?
2xw
Active member
I don't accept them as part of the deal. Why should my BCA membership fees go to some sort of weird control fantasy that will never work?
A gate on Giants would need to be massive, incredibly costly and would be vandalised. Whatever happens in Giants that you don't like will only happen right outside the gate (same with Suicide and folks will shit in Winnats instead), the thing is on the ordnance survey. Giants already has tons of concrete poured down it and a load of rubble in the entrance where it was gated last time someone tried to impose themselves on it.
Yes, mines should be grilled to stop people/things falling into them, doesn't mean I think they should be locked (see Oxlow). Should we be putting a cage over the top of Eldon Hole? (There's a lot of shit been thrown in it). Carlswark gets lots of visitors could that be gated?
If you really want to get rid of the problems in Giants hole get rid of the car park. Put a code lock on the gate that's already on said car park. Anything except smashing bits of cave apart for nothing?
A gate on Giants would need to be massive, incredibly costly and would be vandalised. Whatever happens in Giants that you don't like will only happen right outside the gate (same with Suicide and folks will shit in Winnats instead), the thing is on the ordnance survey. Giants already has tons of concrete poured down it and a load of rubble in the entrance where it was gated last time someone tried to impose themselves on it.
Yes, mines should be grilled to stop people/things falling into them, doesn't mean I think they should be locked (see Oxlow). Should we be putting a cage over the top of Eldon Hole? (There's a lot of shit been thrown in it). Carlswark gets lots of visitors could that be gated?
If you really want to get rid of the problems in Giants hole get rid of the car park. Put a code lock on the gate that's already on said car park. Anything except smashing bits of cave apart for nothing?
Chocolate fireguard
Active member
2xw
Active member
The stuff that needs protecting in Giants is beyond Garlands. The bit before that is already trashed. It takes (and would continue to take post gate) a couple of hundred kids a week. Cut the ropes off the (free climbable) tubular bells and don't leave any valuables in there, then make the car park less accessible. Then it's sorted without spending £5-10k
Gates don't work long term and barely work short term and require ongoing maintenance and hours and hours of (volunteer!) time that the caving community doesn't have. It's a power trip for nowt.
Gates don't work long term and barely work short term and require ongoing maintenance and hours and hours of (volunteer!) time that the caving community doesn't have. It's a power trip for nowt.
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2xw
Active member
These are philosophical arguments, which I suspect could probably go on forever without resolve, so here's a wider question that might not be contained by this thread; what is the long term plan for all of these gates and arcane access systems?
The last 50-100 years has seen an explosion in putting doors on things relative to the time before that, and in the next 50 the people who built them will be gone. The BCA is outright hostile to participation by young people and the DCA whilst much friendlier and hospitable doesn't seem to attract them either, so who are we handing all the admin off to and what are we going to do to attract them?
The last 50-100 years has seen an explosion in putting doors on things relative to the time before that, and in the next 50 the people who built them will be gone. The BCA is outright hostile to participation by young people and the DCA whilst much friendlier and hospitable doesn't seem to attract them either, so who are we handing all the admin off to and what are we going to do to attract them?
Latter point has also been discussed numerous times on this forum. Someone would need to do some number crunching on average BCA years of membership, but it doesn't need that many joining to maintain current levels.
The coded gate at top of track could be most successful ploy, provided landowner was happy with that, but it probably wouldn't take long for thieves to find out the number.
The coded gate at top of track could be most successful ploy, provided landowner was happy with that, but it probably wouldn't take long for thieves to find out the number.
Pete K
Well-known member
Locking the track gate won't eliminate the problem. A significant proportion of the 'non-caver' visitors walk down from Mam Nick over the fields.
2xw is a bit out of date on his led party visitor numbers too. With the radon levels in there, Giants gets more like tens of kids a week for most of the year, not the hundreds of a decade back. Sad to see the classic trope of 'instructed groups = cave destruction' also coming out again Will, real classy.
As for the debate about gating the cave here... I'm not touching this with a barge pole.
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aricooperdavis
Moderator
Citation needed! I'm a young (ish) person and have received shed loads of support from the BCA. I was invited, by another young (ish) person in the BCA, to take a very involved participatory role. That being said I do think the "soft" measures of making parking harder etc should be thoroughly explored before even considering major engineering works to the entrance!
2xw
Active member
People joining BCA is not the same as people willing to do admin work for the BCA. Gated systems of access have broken down where nobody is left or cares anymore which is one of many reasons the Derbyshire Key is so good
Ari I was on BCA council for about 7 years. BCA wants young people to do grunt work and fix things but it is fundamentally a deeply conservative organisation resistant to any sort of change. Took us like half a decade to get a new website lol
As for Pete's comments, fair enough. Shame about the lack of visitors cos of the radon stuff (maybe we just needs a couple thousand more CICs?
)
Pitlamp
Well-known member
Is there mention of the BCA being: "deeply conservative organisation resistant to any sort of change" in its constitution?
If you're really referring to certain officers' opinions, rather than an institutional ethos, remember we all voted them in. Anyone can put themselves forward for election if they disagree with the approach of an existing officer and thus be a part of any significant change which is perceived to be beneficial, if they can persuade the membership to vote for them. My own view is that those volunteers currently in post do a good job.
I'm at a loss to reconcile with your mention that: "The BCA is outright hostile to participation by young people".
If you're really referring to certain officers' opinions, rather than an institutional ethos, remember we all voted them in. Anyone can put themselves forward for election if they disagree with the approach of an existing officer and thus be a part of any significant change which is perceived to be beneficial, if they can persuade the membership to vote for them. My own view is that those volunteers currently in post do a good job.
I'm at a loss to reconcile with your mention that: "The BCA is outright hostile to participation by young people".
aricooperdavis
Moderator
I appreciate that, and am genuinely grateful for your 7 years of voluntary work, but the BCA is the people who run it. I don't get a vote on council, and I don't want one, my effort is best employed in implementation and operation, but I've never once been told to do anything conservative, anti-change, or anti-youth by anyone in the organisation.
The BCA also has very little (if anything) to do with the on-the-ground operation of access arrangements, so I'm not sure I see the relevance.
Babyhagrid
Well-known member
I have to say that the BCA have been very friendly to my student club. Giving us grants for kit and helping out with sorting training out. And that in my experience they are not hostile to young people
