Trespass

[mikem]

The talk was hosted by the Sheffield adventure film festival & they have a couple more that may be of interest (plus links to buy the book from independent bookstore): https://shaff.co.uk/

 

[mrodoc]

We might grumble about access but in Eire all land is private. You should see how small the walking guides are - there are virtually no public rights of way. Luckily most but not all landowners are happy to let cavers go onto their land.

 

[mikem]

Most of our rights of way are just the routes locals took to visit their neighbours, work or church.

 

[al]

Not entirely off-topic, but, if you ever get a chance to see "the Cheviot, the Stag and the Black, Black Oil", a play by John McGrath, take it. It's not so much about trespass, more about land ownership and its history north of the border.

But it's not solely historic. I first saw the play enacted by the 7:80 Theatre Company in Preston in the early 70s and found it fascinating and very moving and, the year before last, I went to see its latest incarnation revived by the National Theatre of Scotland (in association with Dundee Rep and Live Theatre, Newcastle) when I was having a break on Orkney, and it has been brought up-to-date, incorporating some much more recent inroads into our freedoms.

It is funny, musical and there is much audience participation ... but I defy you to come away from it unaffected by the message it brings.

EDIT: Sorry - I should really have put this post in the land management thread!!

 

[NeilC]

Most of our rights of way are just the routes locals took to visit their neighbours, work or church.

That reminds me of something that's always puzzled me - as almost all rights of way have come about simply because they were the routes that people used to get about, most people having no means of transport other than by foot until comparatively recently, why are there so few of them in Scotland and Ireland?  Presumably people there needed to walk about just as much as English people did?  And given the more dispersed settlement patterns, I'd have expected more paths rather than fewer.

 

[mikem]

They were still tenants when the footpaths were established.

 

[mrodoc]

Most of our rights of way are just the routes locals took to visit their neighbours, work or church.

That reminds me of something that's always puzzled me - as almost all rights of way have come about simply because they were the routes that people used to get about, most people having no means of transport other than by foot until comparatively recently, why are there so few of them in Scotland and Ireland?  Presumably people there needed to walk about just as much as English people did?  And given the more dispersed settlement patterns, I'd have expected more paths rather than fewer.

Possibly smaller population and differing terrain. There are plenty of 'green roads' in Southern Ireland but I don't know what their status is.

 

[NeilC]

Most of our rights of way are just the routes locals took to visit their neighbours, work or church.

That reminds me of something that's always puzzled me - as almost all rights of way have come about simply because they were the routes that people used to get about, most people having no means of transport other than by foot until comparatively recently, why are there so few of them in Scotland and Ireland?  Presumably people there needed to walk about just as much as English people did?  And given the more dispersed settlement patterns, I'd have expected more paths rather than fewer.

Possibly smaller population and differing terrain. There are plenty of 'green roads' in Southern Ireland but I don't know what their status is.

I suspect this is the explanation in areas like the Highlands, for example, but you also find very few rights of way in areas like the Central Belt, which is as densely populated, and similar in terrain to many parts of northern England.  And of course Ireland was very heavily populated until the famine.  Perhaps many of the pre-famine paths have just disappeared back into the landscape?   

 

[mikem]

They were also "owned" by the landed gentry, who didn't want their tenants to have rights.

 

[NeilC]

They were also "owned" by the landed gentry, who didn't want their tenants to have rights.

That's true, but then it was also true of most of rural England (indeed, in many cases, still is).

 

[mikem]

Yes, but by the time the footpaths were legitimised, the English were already establishing their independence, which wasn't to come to the Scots & Irish until later

 

[zzzzzzed]

Yes, but by the time the footpaths were legitimised, the English were already establishing their independence...

Who were the English establishing their independence from??

According to this article  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_way  it was the Irish constitution of 1937 that strengthened property owner's rights and removed many rights of way.

In 2009 the Land and Conveyancing Law Reform Act further strengthened the rights of Irish landowners by ?abolishing the doctrine of lost modern grant?, that allows a user to claim a right of way after 12 years of use.

 

[mikem]

From the major landowners. I believe they weren't instituted in English law until 1949.

 

[Stuart France]

The long-awaited debate arising from the ?Don?t Criminalise Trespass? petition to Parliament is taking place next week.  The government has decided to restrict its law reform ambitions to criminalising encampments which involve a vehicle so this will not affect ramblers or cavers who go on foot.

You can read the Government's factsheet about this Bill's provisions on unauthorised encampments here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/police-crime-sentencing-and-courts-bill-2021-factsheets/police-crime-sentencing-and-courts-bill-2021-unauthorised-encampments-factsheet

Watch the debate, which should start at approximately 3.30pm on Monday and 12.30pm on Tuesday, here:
Monday 15 March: https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/b1c475ce-a63f-4769-9070-566963040718
Tuesday 16 March: https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/67a700ab-4500-4fdb-802b-f2e06854f6e1

You'll be able to read a transcript of the debates a few hours after they happen: https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons

 

[mrodoc]

The Irish really weren't looking forward so intent were they on dumping their colonial past. Land access is extremely restrictive.  I just checked the areas of their national parks . You might be suprised to know the largest is in Donegal  sized at 65 square miles. The smallest only covers 5 square miles!  There are only 5 covering 151 square miles out of a total land surface of 27,130 square miles.  Epping forest is nearly as big in area as the Burren National Park that consists of one hill Mullagh More. The Irish have a long way to go to improve land access. Having said this the North is no better having none!

Most landowners in Eire are relatively laid back about visitors on their land but even the most desolate spots are owned by somebody as cavers have discovered in the Burren and landowners can turn quite nasty.

 

[ChrisJC]

I climbed Carrauntoohil (1034m) in Eira a few years back. It is their highest peak.
I was amazed that there is no public right to do so. It is entirely by the kindness of the landowner!

Chris.

 

[mrodoc]

I do  think it extraordinary - and we complain over here!

 

[Stuart France]

I do think it extraordinary too.  This is a thread about the UK Government contemplating making trespass in general into a criminal offence in England and Wales.

The difficulties such might create have been averted, thanks to a widely supported Parliamentary petition and behind the scenes work by the Ramblers, OSS, BMC and BCA, etc.

The immediate response from Mendip (above) to such good news is to switch this topic back to the Republic of Ireland once again.  I am sorry, but Ireland, Scotland etc are off topic.

 

[Oceanrower]

I am sorry, but Ireland, Scotland etc are off topic.

Really? Says who? What gives you the right to say which direction a thread should go?

Might need a bigger forum to fit that ego in. Not sure there?s enough room on this one!

Pretty sure that Scotland AND Mendip are part of the UK.

 

[Stuart France]

But the new trespass law will only apply in England and Wales.

In Scotland this matter is devolved to Holyrood, and the Republic of Ireland is a separate sovereign state, so those jurisdictions are off topic, as is the ad hominem commentary.