Unbelievable vandalism in Notts II

I know what you mean mrodoc - but if we can at least turn it into a learning experience for "BA" maybe some good would come of it? Let's hope so.
 
To make it easier to carry the water in you could try one of those 'camel pouch' type of bags that walkers use, the ones with the tube that comes form the bag which you suck the water through. All you then need to do is hold the bag up high and pinch the end of the tube and hey presto....a ready made shower head. I'm not sure how much mud needs removing but it may be enough.
I can't understand vandalism of any kind in a cave environment but any that is so far into a system that it can only be done by bona fida cavers really makes my piss boil.
 
To echo Lancliffe's thoughts he is right very little skill is needed, its a novice cave. I think I had been then and crawled down that passage on maybe my 3rd or 4th trip underground 4 years ago. No my initials are not BA. I do also remember finding it difficult as a novice to avoid the giant stal in the way on the floor, though I think I did manage it. I can see how that could easily get muddied accidently being right in the way at the exit to a crawl, but there is no excuse for the initials.
 
Protecting a stall in such a spot can be done as follows

- pass the stall in clean clothes and socks this means undressing and carrying your dirty clothes in a bag through the passage.

or

- First persons wraps the stall with cling film
- Everybody passes
- on the way out the last persons removes the cling film completely and takes it out.
Remark : this is only to be done for massive stalls not for fragile ones.

It's a hassle and everybody needs to do this of course and everybody needs to know it in advance and bring in a role of cling film.
Or if there is club who is willing the monitor/guard this then cling film + instructions can be layed down at the beginning of the passage. And when there is almost no cling film left the persons reports this to the club who provides a new roll.

In several caves in which my club works and do the guarding we have plasitifed boards with instructions. An example can be seen in the following clip

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1068395/Movies/Fagnoules-Buc/Fagnoules%20waterpret%202012%20LQ.wmv  at 6:40  Here the visitors are asked to clean their boots and clothes to avoid that the pools which are coming get muddied.
 
I hope this is a joke, you can?t actually expect anyone to do that can you? Not to mention the problem of leaving bits of Clingfilm everywhere when it snags, littering the cave. I already dislike all the littering of tape in the Welsh caves if we added Clingfilm to this, the caves will resemble a rubbish tip!

A valuable idea but I one I think would not be practical in most caves on a 'normal' trip. Damage I am afraid by mud in these sorts of passage is inevitable but mainly reversible if cleaned every so often.

P.s. if you are crawling through mud to get to the formation how would the clingfilm be kept clean anyway?
 
you can?t actually expect anyone to do that can you?
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Of course you can, and should. People on a "normal trip" should be watching out for the formations and not causing damage. (What's an "abnormal trip" that would cause damage?)  :ang:
 
Of course I would expect people to try there best at avoiding the formations but stripping off or wrapping the cave in clingfilm, really?

A Normal trip in this case is a normal sporting trip not a trip of scientific interest into a specially protected cave.
 
Why are people so emotionally attached to the cleanliness of stal?

I think some people often go totally over the top with keeping stal clean, when compared to other features. Most hardly care at all about mudyding the limestone walls, floor or roof. Surely these are just as important? Why is stal so important to people? Simply cos they are pretty, sometimes?!?

Now i obviously understand avoiding muddying them if easy to do so, and of course vandalism on purpose is very poor form, but we shouldn't be jumping through massive hoops. Lets keep some perspective.
 
Have had a trip into one of the Belgian caves (Reseau du Bois de Waerimont) where it is necessary to take off all outer clothing including wellies/helmet and light put in the bags provided, crawl through partly "clingfilmed" area, then re-dress before continuing on the trip, all repeated on the way back !

I managed to slice my head on the broken off stals (from original exploration) in the ceiling, and crawled through trying not to Bleed all over the cave !
 
@Rob,

Off course walls, floor / roofs need to be protected too. That's why taping is required. But that has to be done by the explorers at time of exploration. 

@Alex

No it is not a joke, perhaps cling film is a bit drastic but undressing and taking off your dirty clothes and boots and taking it with you in a bag should become a natural reaction when approaching a white stall which is unpassable without the risk of making the stall dirty. And I never mentioned that you should crawl over the cling film it is just used to protect the stall for a while. If you want to crawl over a muddy passage you'll need stronger plastic. But it can be de done sure no problem, in the last document there is even an example of it.

In some caves were I guide stripping is required mutliple times and everybody is doing it. We even take extra socks and/or shoes with us. It is just a matter of the correct reaction. And of course this starts with the explorers. When we find a virgin passage and we can't continue because we are too muddy or don't have the correct equipement to protect it then we turn back and  come back some days later.

See the opinion of the club were I'm member of
http://www.scavalon.be/avalonuk/protection/avalonview.htm

Some documents about protection and taping (by P De Bie)
http://www.scavalon.be/downloads/Cave%20Protection%20English.pdf
http://www.scavalon.be/downloads/Balisage_de_concretions.pdf

BR

Dagobert
 
AA Speleo said:
Have had a trip into one of the Belgian caves (Reseau du Bois de Waerimont) where it is necessary to take off all outer clothing including wellies/helmet and light put in the bags provided, crawl through partly "clingfilmed" area, then re-dress before continuing on the trip, all repeated on the way back !

I managed to slice my head on the broken off stals (from original exploration) in the ceiling, and crawled through trying not to Bleed all over the cave !
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Bois de Waerimont is one of the caves were I'am a guide  ;D

And was it worth it all the hassle of changing clothes?  This cave is preserved almost for 100% and we are trying to keep it that way. So only limited guided tours are allowed. One trip is for 6 persons with 2 guides.

And yes sometimes a stall is broken during exploration or guided tours, but trying to prevent it as much as possible is the way to start. Nobody is perfect.

Br

Dagobert (Sc Avalon)
Ps When did you visit the BDW?
PS Photo galery of the cave can be found here: http://www.scavalon.be/webalbums/Belgian%20Caves/Reseau%20de%20Waerimont/index.html
 
I don't think I could do that in new passage, come back at a later time. Exploration fever would take over.

I still think its going overboard though I guess taking a plastic bag for your oversuit would not be a massive amount of trouble. If however you need to do a complete change of cloths that you need to take with you through the riggers of the cave then that is definately too much. I also take it the caves in Belgium are far warmer and not that gnarly as some of the caves here? If I am shiverring from recently being soaked the last thing I would want to do is strip off!

Anyway as regards to Notts 2 which was the reason I said crawling over the clingfilm and bring it through mud with you is that is what you would have to do in the cave in question on this thread, so it would also not be a viable solution. Stripping wouldent either in that cave as you would have to do it in the crawl some how. If you did it beforehand then you will get muddied on the way in.

I don't think it will catch on here, different cultures and different caves. Of course if went to Belgium I would have to respect that custom though I would probbably grumble lol. I think also I would rather see the mud as that's at least natural to the caving enviroment rather than the clingfilm.



 
Hi Dagobert, visited the BDW at the Speleo Dagen in 2009  8)

Was not criticising the extraordinary means required to continue exploration, just the story that whilst trying to do the right thing, nearly spilt blood all over the cave.

Maybe see you at the Anialarra expedition again this year  ;)
 
Alex said:
I don't think I could do that in new passage, come back at a later time. Exploration fever would take over.

I still think its going overboard though I guess taking a plastic bag for your oversuit would not be a massive amount of trouble. If however you need to do a complete change of cloths that you need to take with you through the riggers of the cave then that is definately too much. I take it the caves in Belgium are far warmer and not that gnarly as some of the caves here. If I am shiverring from recently being soaked the last thing I would want to do is strip off!

I don't think it will catch on here, different cultures and different caves. Of course if went to Belgium I would have to respect that custom though I would probbably grumble lol.

Actually would it not be easier just to get in a plasic bag with the bottom cut off (I am being serious here)
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Exploration fever should not take over. In the chantoir the Fagnoules we worked with divers. At a certain moment they were blocked by a passage too small. We promised them not to continue when we reached that point. We  (the non-divers) had to elimiate some siphons first to get there too . But when we reached that point one of us was able to pass but didn't. He turned back but he could clarely see into a large room. Some weeks later we returned with the divers to do the exploration together.

Belgian caves warmer? They are around 11?c but most of them are not too wet. However in the Fagnoules we are exploring in a wetsuit. On the normal way you don't have to change but there are some spots where stripping was required during exploration. This means stripping and then continue in a t-shirt and shorts.

They idea of a plastic bag is good but then I would suggest to take a Tyvex oversuit with you (the white  oversuits that painters use). The weight will be similar to your plastic bag and it will cover everything.
 
AA Speleo said:
Hi Dagobert, visited the BDW at the Speleo Dagen in 2009  8)

Was not criticising the extraordinary means required to continue exploration, just the story that whilst trying to do the right thing, nearly spilt blood all over the cave.

Maybe see you at the Anialarra expedition again this year  ;)
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Hi, I know you were doing the right thing in the bdw :-)

I'm probably going to the Anialarra in september this year.

Cu

Dagobert
 
Exceptional caves need firm measures. However in my mind this should not just be "exceptional" for the area, but on an international standard.

Certainly those photographs of BDW show an impressive cave, but nothing exceptional. In many the caver in a furry is stood in mud. Seems a little ott, but I guess it's hard to say without knowing the circumstances.
 
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