Unbelievable vandalism in Notts II

[Alex]

Just looked at one photo with the plasic on calcite the floor, sorry but that looks far worse than any mud and any arguing its temporay is mute because it will be left there in-situ to "protect" it. Are we not replacing one kind of despoilation with another? I guess there is a balance to be struck.

When I am caving I like to feel like the first person there, I don't like seeing obvious man made things lying around. Of course if things are damaged that feeling goes away too but the right balance has to be struck I think there is a such thing as overprotection, which seems to go on in Belgium caves in my eyes. But it works for you guys and you are happy with it then fine.

But with our 8C flood prone caves which would send most plastic floating into a sump then not here please. Best protection here is things like the Trick in Swan Dyke the place is pristene beyond there as not many are willing to push them selfs through that squeeze. The cave is not locked next to the road and is open to all who are on a diet lol.

 

[Amy]

Here people tend to ignore flagging tape all together. I personally dont like seeing flagging tape it kinda destroys the look of the cave but I understand the use. We have so much spray pant and etching and breaking formation vandelizm getting a bit of mud on a formation is so low down the list it doesn't even bat an eye here. Of course good cavers generally try to not touch formations its considered a no-no. There are some caves limited access that take great care, for example a cave in Kentucky there is a lovely formation gallery where the path through it is no wider than a single boot width to protect it. I love that place...one path through everything, everyone in there respects it. There is untouched dirt never bothered just inches from your tracks...so pristine it is amazing. Really, it's just comperable to the care I saw standard there in the UK. I wish it was standard here too. Cavers are good but sadly too many vandels get in, ESPECIALLY now with the mass government closures for WNS. Only the vandels are going in...no one there anymore to care for the caves. 

 

[Leclused]

Here people tend to ignore flagging tape all together. I personally dont like seeing flagging tape it kinda destroys the look of the cave but I understand the use.

Amy,

Taping can be done almost invisible. In most of the photo's of the BDW there is taping in place., defining a path. Take a look at the document which I posted earlier and you will see that taping can be done very discrete. But it takes some time to do it.

And yes it is always a trade off but when are we overprotecting? Closing a cave for everbody would be the best protection for the cave itself but we try to keep our disoveries open to the public so that everybody can see the beauty of the caves.

BR

Dagobert
Ps Long time that there was a good discussion about conservation 

 

[Pitlamp]

I'm glad you mentioned stuff being flushed into a sump Alex.

No doubt most people would regard the Kingsdale Master Cave as a fairly clean place, unsullied by litter etc. It's self cleaning (in flood) - right? Well of course the master cave continues once the roof dips below water and the first quarter of a mile of the downstream sump is strewn with all sorts of debris. There must be huge numbers of people who have to hop out of the Roof Tunnel in just one welly.

This can even become a hazard for divers; not long ago someone left a reel containing a couple of hundred metres of red and white stripey tape in Peak Cavern, upstream of Far Sump. They did it with the best of intentions as it was to be used to tape off vulnerable floors on a later trip. Of course the system flooded and the first I knew was some time later, when swimming through Far Sump, I had to deal with all that plastic tape which had spilled off the reel and strewn itself everywhere. It turned into quite an absorbing dive.

The most unusual example of this sort of thing (for me at least) was way back in the 1990s, when I was exploring a new passage in the Clapham Beck Head sump. Unbeknown to me a fully decorated Christmas tree had been dislodged in high water from Ingleborough Cave not long before. My attention had been focussed on the floor of the sump whilst making sure the line was well belayed, as the route was a bit involved. At one point I glanced up and was amazed to find that the whole passage was strewn with glittering tinsel, and with shiny baubles all over the place. It just looked like someone had deliberately decorated the underwater passage for Christmas. Unsurprisingly this section was named "Tinsel Alley".

Mercifully, I never met the actual Christmas tree on that dive . . .

 

[Amy]

Here people tend to ignore flagging tape all together. I personally dont like seeing flagging tape it kinda destroys the look of the cave but I understand the use.

Amy,

Taping can be done almost invisible. In most of the photo's of the BDW there is taping in place., defining a path. Take a look at the document which I posted earlier and you will see that taping can be done very discrete. But it takes some time to do it.

And yes it is always a trade off but when are we overprotecting? Closing a cave for everbody would be the best protection for the cave itself but we try to keep our disoveries open to the public so that everybody can see the beauty of the caves.

BR

Dagobert
Ps Long time that there was a good discussion about conservation 

That is true...I've seen it done well and seen it done shoddy. The worst is when views are obstructed and/or there are no angles to get photos without red or orange tape running across the image. The cave I mentionedin Kentucky has flagging tape on some paths, it's done very well. I would rather something be flagged off and kept clean than not and destroyed, but I also feel that if it weren't for vandles and spelunkers (the term we use for people who cave but aren't really cavers, lack of gear, knoweledge, respect for the caves etc) we wouldn't need such measures anyway. Accidents will always happen and it's a balance but if we dont go there nothing can be learned or studied or enjoyed, and a caver, a true caver, will be careful to not damage formations by any form (as I said even mearly touching a formation is looked down upon here even with a perfectly clean hand). I do find it odd how it seems there is such problem in the US that I just didnt see there, or even  hear about in other countries.

 

[dunc]

I know what you mean Amy, it can be a nuisance having tape in the way when trying to take a photograph, but as you say better taped than destroyed. A necessary evil with so many un-educated/clumsy cavers around?

One option for removing tape is of course after the trip on the computer using photo-editing software, cloning to 'remove' the tape - not something I've really dabbled with much but on the odd occasion when I have put in some effort the results were acceptable.

 

[Amy]

Yeah i've taken rope out of images and such that way, it's just harder and more fuss. I wish it were possible to (if photographing) peal back the survey tape and then just put it back in place after the photo is taken so it's out of the photo.