Vandalised Locks on Mendip Caves

[mikem]

No, they are locked due to every cave that's been left open having suffered unnecessary damage over many years, including those in the Dales & South Wales (don't know Derbyshire or North Wales well enough).

 

[The Old Ruminator]

One of the sites with a vandalised lock was a very important archeological site. That in a cave not particularly long. I cant see cavers doing that in such a well-known cave. Cavers from outside Somerset really don't get the difference between us and more rural caving areas up North. One part of the cave systems remaining ungated in Fairy Cave Quarry is Balch Aven Series. Recently we noticed mud deliberately hand smeared over some fine formations. Not an easy cave to access as there is an awkward climb inside. Mr O'Doc went there and cleaned some of the mud off with a pressure washer. Just ask yourself if this would have happened with a gate on the cave. No doubt the other fine caves there would have been despoiled if left open. So we have a "warden"  system at FCQ and Reservoir Hole. Now that really gets the goat of the anti gate brigade. We get all sorts of bad press over that. That at least makes somebody on each logged trip responsible for any damage. We saw on my other post how negligent so-called cave photographers have become. Anyone with a mobile phone is now a cave photographer. As for cost for lock upkeep that is covered by the minimal trip fee of ?2 at FCQ and Reservoir Hole which I am sure cavers don't mind paying. At both FCQ and RH caves are locked at the insistence of the landowner both of which are commercial concerns wishing to protect their " assets ". Yes, their caves. We don't own them. Only with their goodwill can we visit them at all.

 

[NewStuff]

No, they are locked due to every cave that's been left open having suffered unnecessary damage over many years,

Every cave that's been left open?
Kindly f*** off and think before you type, you're so far beyond stretching the limits if credulity it's stupid.
If you want to loc, gate and control, at least have the stones to say so... this act and sham is pathetic.

 

[mikem]

If you actually look around you'll see muddy handprints all over the place in regularly visited sites. The majority of Mendip caves aren't locked, just the finest, or those where landowners have asked for them. Several insist on holding the keys themselves, others don't want to be bothered by cavers knocking on their door, but all local clubs have keys, which visiting cavers can easily borrow if they ask. Leader caves have to be planned a bit further ahead.

 

[NewStuff]

If you actually look around you'll see muddy handprints all over the place in regularly visited sites.

On *EVERY* cave? You were saying that every cave not locked up has been vandalised. Again, Take a look at yourselves, and look at the rest of the island. You're the only ones that have this issue. Do you really think that Mendip is the last bastion of cave preservation and everywhere else defecates in caves, vandalises formations, snaps stal etc? Mendip is stuck in a bygone age and it just can't get it's collective head around the new fangled ways, I mean, they couldn't possibly work, because that's not how Mendip does it, so it's not the right way to do things. That's exactly how you come across.

You'll also find there is a lot of supposition that certain Mendip groups actively encourage locks where derby keys would be just fine with landowners, as all they want is to discharge the pitfalls that happen with accessing the system by the general public. Most landowners don't care about what groups have keys, who issues them, the politics off the community... they just want to stop accidental access and lawsuits. Given the actions of a lot of the common members in the CSCC and Mendip, you'll find no-one will be surprised when it comes out that is actually the case.

 

[The Old Ruminator]

Crikey Newstuff there is no need to rant and swear. Your remarks etc show clearly that you are dead against any form of access control. " Permission whats that then ? ". I really hope that you are in a tiny minority.

 

[NewStuff]

Need? Absolutely. Playing nice gets you nowhere with certain members of the "anti access" brigade. As evidenced by the recent CSCC/BCA shenanigans. You should also know I've never said I'm against all locks, gates etc. If they're absolutely needed, and it's not at the behest of some individual/club/group on a power trip. Sadly the latter seems to to be happen with worrying regularity. If CRoW applies to a cave (ignoring DEFRA's idiotic stance), then that's exactly what Section 26 is for. You'll find I'm in the majority, it's just I'm more vocal about it, and I don't really care that I'm on whatever passes for an unofficial blacklist on Mendip. Others do care about not being able to access keys given some of the politics on there. Derby keys should be the norm, and deviated from if there is a need or absolute insistence on a lock, that is not pushed by a club determined to gatekeep.

As for my sig, if you can't recognise it's tongue in cheek to all the accusations of me pirating systems and chopping locks, then I'm afraid a Sense of Humor transplant is beyond my abilities.

 

[The Old Ruminator]

Hi Newstuff. Are you on a blacklist on Mendip ? If you are I am unaware of it particularly as I don't know who you are. Of course, you are welcome to your views and to express them here. That's what a forum is all about. Yes, I am sorry if I misread your subtle irony. Maybe I would contradict your bit about clubs controlling access as that is quite rare on Mendip. I can only think St Cuthberts at the moment as the BEC own the land where the cave entrance is. That then is their right. Our current access " restrictions " work very well locally. No backlog of trips. Everyone appears to be happy. Some might even appreciate my dry humor as I act as warden and recount the history and geology of the caves. Ok, I might slow things up a bit ay my age but that I put down to conservation care. When Willie Stanton found the pure white moonmilk vandalised in Reservoir Hole he permanently sealed the entrance though relented sometime later. FCQ was closed for some 20 years but delicate negotiations with the landowner reopened the caves. Really we are still on a knife-edge there and any issues will find the caves closed again. In life what works works and any messing about usually leads to problems.

 

[Mike Hopley]

When someone has a different opinion, you should be capable of disagreeing without telling them to f*** off.

Holding a strong opinion is a bad (and childish) excuse for rudeness. It's self-indulgent obnoxiousness disguised as "strong principles" and "speaking truth fearlessly".

I'd like to think I'm stating the obvious here.

 

[NewStuff]

Hi Newstuff. Are you on a blacklist on Mendip ? If you are I am unaware of it particularly as I don't know who you are.

Apparently so. I've been told more, but that would likely reveal who told me so that's as much as I'm willing to say. Doesn't bother me a jot. The fact that a blacklist can actually exist as a thing is more worrying. Most cavers do not have my ability to open a lock without any damage, or even signs it's been opened, and should they get on the wrong side of the wrong person because the moon was waning or they support a different football team, or other equally asinine reasons, means they don't get access. Now if we're being open and honest, it's a thing that happens and eveybody knows it, despite protestations that such a blacklist does not exist.

When someone has a different opinion, you should be capable of disagreeing without telling them to f*** off.

Holding a strong opinion is a bad (and childish) excuse for rudeness. It's self-indulgent obnoxiousness disguised as "strong principles" and "speaking truth fearlessly".

I'd like to think I'm stating the obvious here.

As stated, the recent shenanigans show us that playing nicely does not get you anywhere. The "anti" brigade are certainly playing  hardball with a thin veneer of civility over the top. I prefer not to pretend. I'm done being civil, I've played nicely for a few years out of respect to a couple of people that asked. It's obviously not working. I myself am a perfectly reasonable man. If nasty tricks were not being played, I wouldn't need to express myself in this manner. But this is where we find ourselves, and this is how I'll be.

 

[Pitlamp]

I don't think you've got the right end of the stick, NewStuff.

I'm a northern caver but I've never had any difficulty on my visits to Mendip when it comes to access. I've always found the local cavers to be friendly, helpful and encouraging. So I find it difficult to understand what you're trying to explain.   

 

[Bob Mehew]

all local clubs have keys, which visiting cavers can easily borrow if they ask.

My understanding is keys are not available at the moment with all club huts being effectively bared for non members.  Could that be the reason for for OR's orignal post about "At least four Mendip caves have suffered attempts at a break-in recently"?

As for the state of Mendip caves - when did CSCC last have a push on cave conservation?  Sad to say that only one RCC has conservation on its home page.  Education is not the sole answer but it does help.

 

[Ali M]

Keys are available, but perhaps not as readily or as easily as in "normal" times. PM me for further info.
I have always found the CSCC extremely supportive re conservation issues providing both tape and Pig tail risers. 

 

[Mike Hopley]

If nasty tricks were not being played, I wouldn't need to express myself in this manner. But this is where we find ourselves, and this is how I'll be.

How exactly do you think rudeness on a forum is helping, though? What does it achieve?

You're tarring reasonable people with the same broad brush. You're not hitting your targets, who are different people who don't care about your opinions at all.

It's easy to be angry and strut on a forum, but by itself that doesn't achieve anything positive.

 

[Badlad]

To try and get back on track - why do people think four gates have been vandalised recently?  Is it by disgruntled cavers or just non caving vandals?  What can be done to prevent repetition of the problem as it can get very expensive?

 

[Bob Mehew]

What can be done to prevent repetition of the problem as it can get very expensive?

Although as Ali says, keys can be made available, you need to be in the know.  My guess is there are a fair number of cavers who cave on Mendip but are not linked to the 12 or so clubs who hold keys.  I also can't find any information on the CSCC web site on how to obtain them in the current circumstances.  Is the CSCC system fit for purpose in the current situation which looks like going on for many months to come?

At least CCC has a back up system for access to the keys other than via club huts.

 

[PeteHall]

One of the sites with a vandalised lock was a very important archeological site. That in a cave not particularly long. I cant see cavers doing that in such a well-known cave.

My speculation is that this is a reference to Aveline's Hole.

An easy walk into a gigantic entrance, right beside and in full view of a busy road. Less than 50 yards from where hundreds of tourists park.

The casual visitor would easily be forgiven for thinking that the cave must continue a long way past the rather large and not particularly sturdy looking grill a short distance in.

If I am right about the cave, I'm with TOR; this certainly wasn't cavers.

 

[Oceanrower]

Avaline's Hole must, surely, hold some kind of world record as the shittiest hole with the most amount of unnecessary stainless steel fencing shoved inside it...

 

[NewStuff]

but by itself that doesn't achieve anything positive.

We've shown that being reasonable doesn't get you anywhere, so unless I plan on lying down and doing f*** all, this is what's left. Granted, it isn't all, or likely more than a handful, of Mendip's cavers. But enough of them that have an influence on gates, access, and politics are smearing peoples impression of the whole area by actions taken.

Avaline's Hole must, surely, hold some kind of world record as the shittiest hole with the most amount of unnecessary stainless steel fencing shoved inside it...

Ooohh... careful... that's the special baby of 2 of the most sensitive  stick-in-the-muds going. Word has it that they don't take kindly to the odd rumour doing the rounds that maybe the pictures suddenly appeared shortly before they were "discovered"... as no-one had seen them before in the vast expanses of that system.... 

 

[The Old Ruminator]

If you belong to a Mendip club at the moment you should be able to get a CSCC key. Some of us regulars have our own copy anyway. In my case more for the car park at FCQ. The route to access for warden led caves remains the same as stated in Mendip Underground. You apply to the keyholder who then sends out an email to all of the leaders/wardens. Clearly there may be a reluctance during the pandemic for such volunteers to come forward particularly for clubs coming from further north. It has been stated that virus transmission is far more active in closed humid areas than outside. ( ie caves ). Certainly, there is more heightened tension and angst about at the moment in all walks of life and that may well be reflected in our hobby. Many are now bored being on furlough so are wandering about looking to fill their time. It's no good going to the coast down in the SW now as on a good day its packed. I really hope people don't see us as a closed shop on Mendip. All bent on control and power. We try to be protective and limit damage to our caves. Essentially they are not great passages you wander down like in South Wales and Yorkshire. Our cave environment is far more fragile. I have taken many trips over my 55 years. I don't " lead " people by the nose. I ask them what they want to do. We had some Belgian cavers over recently. I took them into Shatter Cave. They had a wonderful time on Mendip and were very gracious in their thanks. Newstuff please dont give the impression that you are a beligerant anarchist. Getting a poor reputation never helps anyone though I rather think that you might be playing to the gallery at times.