Vandalism at Welsh cave site.

[NigR]

Is this site adjacent to Goat's Cave.

Assuming you are referring to Goat's Hole (more commonly known as Paviland Cave), the answer is no, it's nowhere near.

 

[whitelackington]

Hi NigR, yes I was meaning Paviland.

 

[Alkapton]

Been off digging so bit late in responding.  Graham, at what point did I ever accuse someone in your team, you are making an assumption at least as large as mine.    People speak to each other.    In one case someone was in a pub (happened to be a caver) and overheard mention from locals in the pub of the existence of a new cave (nobodys fault).  The person visits the new cave as a result it got gated - what happened next resulted in the cave being closed.

I said what I meant - whoever did it must have known where and what to target.  That takes effort, there must be reason other than 'mere' random vandalism.

If you think there is nobody living in South Wales who would act as I've suggested you are just plain nieve.  I am not even saying that is what happened, but I am saying to my mind that seems more than possible.    Tis best to keep quiet about any new discoveries untill you know if they need protection and if so how to protect them.  And the locals who are not cavers etc. can be the most likely to unknowingly spread information.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

Gower is a playground for the urban masses of Swansea and beyond.  Especially this time of the year.  This article illustrates the sort of behaviour and problems this engenders:  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-14515868

I once saw a family - two parents and two small children - all on individual quad bikes, tearing up the grass within a Gower nature reserve.  This is also an area where fridge and washing machine dumping are a virtual national pastime.

You can bet your life that the larger caves of Gower are regularly desecrated, littered, crapped in and generally abused.

I don't believe in conspiracies but I do acknowledge the power of coincidence.  Can we be sure that this action was specifically targeted on the archeology? 

 

[Alkapton]

If you look at the photo of the art before it was damaged I think its safe to conclude it was deliberately targeted.    I'm very interested in cave art but I'm no expert, if I saw the photo with no explanation I would just see random scratches, even with an explanation I can't see a raindeer I just have to rely on experts.    The art in Creswell is similar, without an expert I for one would miss it completely.

Since last post I've read the paper that is publically available.    I thought the area was 'off the beaten track', sadly I was wrong.    It makes me wonder why anything was made public before the location was secured and made safe,  I have to agree with NigR's comments above.    Something like this is so unique it has to be properly protected.  It does not need a great big arrow pointing at it until it is protected.

At the risk of opening old wounds...  From what I understand the damage is minimal????  Well not being expert and being nieve I think mud can be cleaned, as stall is often cleaned in caves with good results.  It sounds like the scratches are surface scratches, so maybe the vandal thought they can be removed by conservationists without great harm resulting.    I'm just exploring my previouse thoughts.  It seems behaiviour consistent with someone with the motives I described.    Surely a vandal wanting to damage the art would have made deeper scratches?

I do hope that the art can be restored without loss of information.

 

[NigR]

If you look at the photo of the art before it was damaged I think its safe to conclude it was deliberately targeted. I'm very interested in cave art but I'm no expert, if I saw the photo with no explanation I would just see random scratches, even with an explanation I can't see a reindeer I just have to rely on experts.   

Can we be sure that this action was specifically targeted on the archeology? 

I can confirm from my own experience that the art is indeed very hard to find.

 

[whitelackington]

I also am puzzled as to why this discovery was not afforded better protection if it was so important.

I agree with Peter Burgess 
Although this cave may not be adjacent to Paviland,
The Red Lady of Paviland occasionally dined on Reindeer ( new suggested date 33,000 ago),
this "new" cave engraving is supposed to be of Reindeer
both these caves are on the Gower.
Anyone know the suggested last date of a reindeer siting on the Gower?

 

[Peter Burgess]

Oooo I just couldn't resist this one - 24th December 2010?

 

[shortscotsman]

25th Dec , 10,000 BCE  ?  (according to the article )

 

[ogof addict]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/science-%26-technology/fluorescent-cat-totally-about-medical-research%2c--say-scientists-201109134295/

how scientists go about their work, honest

 

[ptpeaty]

This is also an area where fridge and washing machine dumping are a virtual national pastime.

You are talking total tosh. I don't know which part of the Gower peninsula you have been to but it bears no relationship to the place I know and love and regularly visit. There is no rubbish dumping problem here as you describe and as for the 'national pastime' bit, you are well offbeam. The people of Wales are certainly no worse than their English neighbours WRT rubbish dumping.

You can bet your life that the larger caves of Gower are regularly desecrated, littered, crapped in and generally abused.

Again, I don't recognise the caves you are describing here. The only crap you tend to find in the larger caves is bat, sheep or dragon shit as these animals tend to shelter in them.

 

[shortscotsman]

I guess the name of the cave is no longer secret,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-18648683

 

[graham]

See the latest edition of the UBSS Proceedings