What are BCA playing at?

[Aubrey]

The current BCA constitution requires a postal ballot of members to confirm any changes to that constitution.
The ballot currently being organised is not a normal postal ballot and therefore unconstitutional.
The result of the ballot will be subject to challenge by anyone who does not like the outcome and the whole exercise will be a waste of time and money.

Is there another BCA storm on the horizon?

 

[Gollum]

But surely it doesn't matter if it is posted electronically to my email address or by a miserable looking chap to my home address. At least with electronic mail my gate doesn't get left open

 

[Bob Mehew]

BCA's constitution states:

13.3. ?postal ballot? can mean an online ballot for those members who have elected to receive communications by email.

We have not gone the whole hog of a full 'on line ballot' but stopping at a half way house of using email to send out the ballot paper to those for whom we have been supplied with an email address and allowing the completed ballot form to be returned by email.  We are still sending some ballot papers out by post to those who have not given us an email address or the trial email bounced.  And we are allowing anyone to return their completed ballot form by email.

We consider our actions are within the constitution. 

Bob Mehew
for BCA Executive

 

[Aubrey]

Sorry Bob, I had missed that definition.

However I feel the current ballot is being shown to be an unreliable shambles which will leave many members unhappy if the result does not go the way they want.
The proposed constitutional changes would resolve the CROW debate and it is therefore crucial that there is no question whatsoever about the validity of the ballot.
For this reason alone would it not be better if the traditional postal balloting system was used rather than an untried and untested experimental system?

I appreciate a lot of effort has been put into the email system but it needs to be shown to be stable and working before being used in anger.

 

[Ian Ball]

What evidence can you provide for a postal vote being of higher representative value than an electronic vote?

What return percentage of membership would make a ballot acceptable?

To those who find the outcome of a ballot distasteful and wish to use the form of ballot for renegotiation, why would a postal ballot be easier to take?

 

[Bob Mehew]

The ballot process has already passed the point of no return.  The results will be announced on 7 October at BCA's Council meeting in Alvechurch's Red Lion pub and publicised there after.  Members feeling aggrieved at the outcome can make representations to the following Council meeting scheduled for 6 January.

Bob Mehew
for BCA Executive

 

[pwhole]

However I feel the current ballot is being shown to be an unreliable shambles which will leave many members unhappy if the result does not go the way they want.

Why is the current ballot being shown to be an unreliable shambles? Obviously many members will be unhappy if the result does not go the way they want, that's the nature of voting, but what does that have to do with the ballot itself? The distribution method and the result are entirely separate and unconnected, yet you suggest that they are one and the same. Email has been around since about 1974 (when it was experimental), and I've been using it daily since the mid-90s, so I'm not sure why that doesn't qualify as tried and tested.

 

[badger]

the current proposed postal/electronic ballot was discussed at length at the AGM and voted upon.
anyone thinking it is a crow ballot is not correct, it is to vote on removing certain wording which has been thrown up as an obstruction to the crow debate. the AGM also voted which somewhere on this forum and I am sure if people want actual numbers they can be supplied, but it was voted that even under the current constitution it does not stop the bca with the crow debate.
the bca crow officer therefore can continue his work in regard to this.

 

[droid]

I voted against the CRoW campaign. I did so for reasons of conservation and also that I regarded a campaign as being a wild goose chase, unlikely to achieve anything that targeted negotiation with landowners couldn't achieve

The majority voted FOR it.

Just f*****g get on with it.
Because this fannying about is making the BCA look very foolish.

 

[badger]

the bca and most bca council have wanted to get on with the outcome of the vote, but some cavers pointed out that they could not as it was against 4.6 of the constitution. so we are here where the new ballot is on new wording, which if approved by the ballot will allow the bca to get on with it. however the AGM also voted that in its opinion we can get on with it anyway as 4.6 does not restrict bca. that is without putting in all the fancy words like pediment.

 

[Ian Adams]

I voted against the CRoW campaign....

..... The majority voted FOR it.

Just .... get on with it.
Because this fannying about is making the BCA look very foolish.

I wish more people would be this respectful to the majority vote (and I mean the world outside caving - Scottish Referendum, EU referendum, two general elections, America etc.) None of us get what we want all of the time but we should respect the outcome even if we don't agree with it.

Droid is right, the fannying about is reflecting badly on the BCA and it is a small minority that are causing the problem.

Ian

 

[badger]

Ian hopefully this ballot will kick start the process again
just need to make sure we encourage everyone to return their ballot paper

 

[Pitlamp]

I voted against the CRoW campaign....

..... The majority voted FOR it.

Just .... get on with it.
Because this fannying about is making the BCA look very foolish.

I wish more people would be this respectful to the majority vote (and I mean the world outside caving - Scottish Referendum, EU referendum, two general elections, America etc.) None of us get what we want all of the time but we should respect the outcome even if we don't agree with it.

Droid is right, the fannying about is reflecting badly on the BCA and it is a small minority that are causing the problem.

Ian

I also voted against pursuing the CRoW job, for what I thought (at the time) were very good reasons. Now I'm not so sure - but that doesn't matter. As Ian Adams points out; we had a fair vote and therefore I respect it.

I can even bring myself to respect the Europe vote, despite the fact it was very close (unsurprisingly, as certain individuals evidently sought to mislead us) and has since descended into a complete farce so we're all going to suffer and be the laughing stock of the planet.

But don't ask me to respect any Scottish independence vote, when the majority of the United Kingdom got no vote (despite the fact it would cost us all a fortune to implement and severely affect us adversely in so many other ways). I love Scotland and the Scots. But it's part of my country, so I'd like a say in what happens to it.

Sorry - you hit a raw nerve. I'd not want this discussion to become embroiled in the morass of current national politics but I felt that the Scottish referendum wasn't an especially good example to support the point you made (which I otherwise agree with).

 

[Oceanrower]

But, surely, on that principle, the rest of Europe should have had a vote on our leaving the EU.

After all, it's part of their continent so maybe they'd like a say in what happens to it...

 

[Pitlamp]

Not a good analogy Oceanrower - but I'm not going to be drawn because I don't want to be responsible for knocking this topic in an alternative direction. My post above was simply to respond to one part of another post.

 

[Pitlamp]

P.S. "Don't call me Shirley". 

(R.I.P Leslie Nielsen)

 

[Alex]

One issue is, well its not one issue. It could have been written in clearer english so those who are not on the forum know what its about. Several of my mates said they were not going to bother until I told them it helps get open access.

 

[Lockchopper]

But, surely, on that principle, the rest of Europe should have had a vote on our leaving the EU.

After all, it's part of their continent so maybe they'd like a say in what happens to it...

Death to the EU. Death to nanny state.

 

[paul]

[gmod]Can we please now get back to the topic at hand?[/gmod]