which carabiners for anchors

[michael.11]

I want to buy a set of carabiners for temporary rigging of vertical caves, and wonder if I can use non locking ones?
In my region caves usually have anchors without rope or carabiners in place, and for each descent we install and remove our own rope.
I prefer non locking since they are faster to install and lighter. But are they considered safe?
I couldn't find any info on this subjects since most guides refer to permanent rigging with maillons
(Note: My SRT guide did use non locking ones on a cliff we trained on, and claimed it is OK that since they are always under a static load)

 

[Tangent_tracker]

There is a series of carabiners by Grivel that have two gates, but seriously, is safety worth trading for speed? It really doesn't take long to lock a carabiner and is probably the quickest part of rigging, if you don't include actually pushing the thing through the anchor!

 

[Loki]

I want to buy a set of carabiners for temporary rigging of vertical caves, and wonder if I can use non locking ones?
In my region caves usually have anchors without rope or carabiners in place, and for each descent we install and remove our own rope.
I prefer non locking since they are faster to install and lighter. But are they considered safe?
I couldn't find any info on this subjects since most guides refer to permanent rigging with maillons
(Note: My SRT guide did use non locking ones on a cliff we trained on, and claimed it is OK that since they are always under a static load)

Only if you’re happy for them to unclip themselves at a really inconvenient moment. El plementos dude!

 

[aricooperdavis]

This is probably a matter of personal opinion and regional culture rather than any evidence-based reasoning. You'll find almost all cavers in the UK rig with screwgates (or occasionally maillons), but lead climbers are happy taking big dynamic falls on wire-gate quickdraws. There are definitely situations where screwgates would be safer, such as any anchors that might be moved around when you pass them, potentially orienting the connectors in a way that could cause them to unclip. But similarly there are situations where a non-locking carabiner would probably do fine, like on deviations. Personally I'd stick with locking carabiners; they're simply more versatile.

 

[Wayland Smith]

Then later we can debate the merits of steel / stainless vs ally.
Or titanium!!!

 

[ChrisJC]

We always use screwgates.

I have seen karabiners rotated where people have passed them (e.g. a rebelay) whilst ascending and not noticed. I have found myself ascending on the gate of a karabiner more than once.

I've also seen karabiners with the gates pushing against the rock just below the anchor point. The gate has not opened because it was a screwgate. But a snapgate would have been open.

Personally, I wouldn't go near any rigging on snapgates.

Chris.

 

[cap n chris]

Fully support Chris JCs view. In addition I'd add that I wouldn't even use snap gates for safety connectors, given the record of death and near death incidents that have occurred directly due to them being used in the normal course of events.

 

[JoshW]

Maillon master race!!

 

[alanw]

Screwgates or maillons, without a doubt.

Remember, both with screwgates and maillons, always ensure that the locking sleeve ends up pointing downwards as it's being screwed closed. The vibrations in the rope from descending and ascending can cause it to unscrew if it's pointing in the wrong direction. Also, never fiddle with the sleeve on a loaded karabiner (i.e. with someone hanging on the rope). If you do so and tighten it, you'll need the same force on the krab when de-rigging.

 

[mikem]

Presumably on the practice rig you weren't going up past the anchors...?

 

[michael.11]

I got the point - I'll use screwgates, or maillons

Presumably on the practice rig you weren't going up past the anchors...?

We were - it included multiple re-belays, traverse and stuff like that

Fully support Chris JCs view. In addition I'd add that I wouldn't even use snap gates for safety connectors, given the record of death and near death incidents that have occurred directly due to them being used in the normal course of events.

What do you mean? I do use snap for cowstail and I haven't encoutered an opinion which considers it unsafe and with a record of death incidents

 

[JoshW]

What do you mean? I do use snap for cowstail and I haven't encoutered an opinion which considers it unsafe and with a record of death incidents

There is a view that at least one of your cowstails should be locking for several reasons:

1) when being rescued it can be useful for security
2) whilst rigging it can add a level of security to have a cowstail that you can clip in and lean out over pitch-heads without any fear of it ever coming undone
3) there is a way snapgates can undo themselves if connected directly to bolts of the cowstail is moved in a certain way (generally moving above the bolt)

Ultimately cowstails are personal preference, but I would never consider weight to be the biggest factor when making decisions on caving kit - size maybe (one of many reasons I use maillons), but generally caving kit is all fairly heavy anyway.

If you’re particularly concerned about weight go and buy some mega lightweight locking carabiner - DMM phantoms are sexy little carabiners and super lightweight - personally I don’t see the additional value in the weight vs cost matrix

 

[cap n chris]

I got the point - I'll use screwgates, or maillons


We were - it included multiple re-belays, traverse and stuff like that


What do you mean? I do use snap for cowstail and I haven't encoutered an opinion which considers it unsafe and with a record of death incidents

Link to video which shows common snap gate failure modes. There are others. The Swiss fatality on a traverse, for example.

Do your research to find the relevant death and near death caving incidents as I'm not minded to revisit the topic, having already covered it several times before.

I'm surprised and a little shocked that an instructor would demonstrate the use of snap gates for rebelays in particular, and rigging in general. I would not do so and would strongly advise against it. You are entirely at liberty to do so, though, and I'm not against that but would urge that people do not presume it's ok to do so because other people think it's acceptable.

 

[michael.11]

I'm surprised and a little shocked that an instructor would demonstrate the use of snap gates for rebelays in particular, and rigging in general

Maybe the idea is that they are not a single point attachments? Always two anchors at top. Though a failed rebelay doesn't sound like a pleasant experience (even if not lethal). As I mentioned I'm already planning to use locking ones

 

[cap n chris]

The near death incident which is apposite re snap links which I recall most vividly is Jules Carter's horrifying fall in France. You can read it and see the photos online in the Mountain Rescue magazine, issue 50, 2014, p24-27.

 

[alanw]

The near death incident which is apposite re snap links which I recall most vividly is Jules Carter's horrifying fall in France. You can read it and see the photos online in the Mountain Rescue magazine, issue 50, 2014, p24-27.

Issue 50 Mountain Rescue Autumn 2014 - Mountain Rescue England and Wales

Perhaps not surprisingly, mountain rescue team members occasionally get injured too. In this issue, Jules Carter described his experience of being the casualty in a cave rescue accident whilst on holiday in France. Elsewhere, Patterdale MRT celebrated their fiftieth anniversary, Russ Hore talked...

www.mountain.rescue.org.uk

 

[cap n chris]

I said I'd not bother but here's the Swiss fatality info. Thread 'SRT kit - deadly accident in Switzerland' https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?threads/srt-kit-deadly-accident-in-switzerland.15351/

 

[Fulk]

Well, for what it's worth, I started dabbling with SRT in 1972, and have been doing it ever since, and I wouldn't dream of using non-lacking karabiners anywhere.

 

[Steve Clark]

Personally - Petzl OK Oval screwgates for rigging. They aren't that expensive if you buy in bulk, they are chunky I-beam design and feel like they'll last longer than the DMM Aeros / Inglesport blue ones. Every rigging krab is then a useful pulley/micro traxion crab, loads of them around if you need to rig a haul or a rescue. The screw sleeve itself is really narrow and will pass through the hole in a bolt no problem if you've clipped it the wrong way (or the hole in a pulley or micro traxion if you need to flip the gate). They also have the red indicator line and really obvious when the gate is open on a bolt.

 

[wormster]

Mallions and screw gates for rigging, snap gates on my long and short cowstails and a locking carabiner on my 3rd cowstail (hand ascender), the 3rd cowstail has saved me a few times in the past!!!!