Why "Wife" in cave names?

Pitlamp

Thread 'The mysterious "Wifes" of Ingleborough'

Here's one to exercise the old grey matter. There are various cave or place names which include the word "Wife". The four obvious ones which spring to mind are:

* Braithwaite Wife Hole

* Tatham Wife Hole

* Grey Wife Sike (and subsequently Grey Wife Hole)

* Batty Wife Cave

They're all on or very close to Ingleborough and three are Chapel-le-Dale related. Does anyone know the significance of the word "Wife" in this context? I consulted David Johnson's excellent "Ingleborough" book but it doesn't address this. So I emailed David and he explained that the reason...
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Loki said:
Pitlamp

Thread 'The mysterious "Wifes" of Ingleborough'

Here's one to exercise the old grey matter. There are various cave or place names which include the word "Wife". The four obvious ones which spring to mind are:

* Braithwaite Wife Hole

* Tatham Wife Hole

* Grey Wife Sike (and subsequently Grey Wife Hole)

* Batty Wife Cave

They're all on or very close to Ingleborough and three are Chapel-le-Dale related. Does anyone know the significance of the word "Wife" in this context? I consulted David Johnson's excellent "Ingleborough" book but it doesn't address this. So I emailed David and he explained that the reason...
  • Like
Click to expand...
Ah.... I see there's a whole rabbit-hole around wife-holes. With no clear answer, but thanks for alerting me to that thread.
 
I'm sure I saw it derived from an old word for shelter or resting place, but struggling to find the original source
 
The preposition ‘with‘ has origins in Old English ‘wið,‘ which is related to the Proto-Germanic ‘*wiþr,‘ meaning ‘against‘ or ‘in the presence of.‘

If we take "against" in it's meaning of "next to", then it could be as simple as the hole close / next to braithwaite
 
Braithwaite.... itself comes from Old Norse, with "breithr" meaning "broad" and "thveit" meaning "clearing".

"Tatham" itself comes from Old English, with the first element, "Tāta," meaning "joyful" or "happy". The second element, "hām," means "village homestead" or "settlement,"

Batty is a surname and is most commonly found in Yorkshire, northern England. It is derived from Batte, a medieval form of the given name Bartholomew.
 
It's not only caves there is also Fisher's Wife's Rake from St. John in the Vale up to the Dodds near Hellvelyn not too sure the derivations of the 'wife' bit hold in relation to a rather steep clamber up a hillside, the talus from the road to the gully wasn't that pleasant, although a shelter (as per Cantclimbtom) at the top would be handy on some days, why Mr Fisher encouraged his wife up that way is not too clear. I suspect there may be other things in existence and they might well have a common source.

Jim
 
That one seems to have a less interesting origin:
M

Post in thread 'The mysterious "Wifes" of Ingleborough'

This link suggests relating to the earth mother, so back to paganism ("witchcraft"): https://megalithix.wordpress.com/2011/07/13/old-wife-ridge/

Anyone know if the good wife stones are standing?

Fisher's wife is more prosaic:
www.thegreatoutdoorsmag.com

The Dodds Round: route guide

Often dismissed as boring, this route up little-known Fisher’s Wife’s Rake path brings is the best of The Dodds Round, says James Forrest.
www.thegreatoutdoorsmag.com www.thegreatoutdoorsmag.com
 
We live, apparently, in an information age. (Yep, heading swiftly for disinformation, but whatever...) Isn't it interesting how feeble our information age is (how many google searches were used in this thread?) when we peer backwards in time. We find a blank wall... at least, on the slopes of Inglebrough, at any rate.

Great contributions. I think "next to a broad clearing" makes most sense... except wouldn't it then be "Hole Wife Braithwaite" ? Or did Old English put the adjectives after the noun ? And could there really have been a happy village up there ... it's a wee bit bleak now.
 
Tatham may have nothing to do with that description, but just be the name of a farm (original owner) - of course that etymology might be totally specious anyway
 
mikem said:
Tatham may have nothing to do with that description, but just be the name of a farm (original owner) - of course that etymology might be totally specious anyway
Click to expand...
It is a local name. Tatham village is only 14 kilometres away, and there have been Tathams in the area since Norman times.
 
Almost 10 miles is quite a long way. I wasn't disputing the link to the name, just the suggestion of what the name might actually mean.
 
According to Carole Hough, who should know (she is a Professor of Onomastics, no less) most place-name evidence for women is found in minor names such as field names or natural features in the landscape. The attribute 'wife' seems to be common in place-names in northwest England, especially in Westmorland (examples from Westmorland in Hough's work are Bracken Wife Knotts, Gowen Wife Close. Old Wife Moss, Rowley Wife, Shepherd Wife, Widdy Wife Wood, White Wife Moor, Willy Wife Close and Wilson Wife Close). Although Hough did not study Yorkshire place-names it is likely that this trend may also be found in the adjacent western part of the Yorkshire Dales.

Reference: Hough, C. 2008. Women in the landscape: place-name evidence for women in north-west England. Nomina 31
 
Google AI suggested a possible meaning connected to "in-laws"

So "(name) Wife's (land feature)" could possibly mean land acquired (inherited?) from an in-law through marriage?
 
Andy C said:
According to Carole Hough, who should know (she is a Professor of Onomastics, no less) most place-name evidence for women is found in minor names such as field names or natural features in the landscape. The attribute 'wife' seems to be common in place-names in northwest England, especially in Westmorland (examples from Westmorland in Hough's work are Bracken Wife Knotts, Gowen Wife Close. Old Wife Moss, Rowley Wife, Shepherd Wife, Widdy Wife Wood, White Wife Moor, Willy Wife Close and Wilson Wife Close). Although Hough did not study Yorkshire place-names it is likely that this trend may also be found in the adjacent western part of the Yorkshire Dales.

Reference: Hough, C. 2008. Women in the landscape: place-name evidence for women in north-west England. Nomina 31
Click to expand...
But that *assumes* that it means wife in the modern sense (as in women/spouse) to conform to a gender ideology?
 
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